6 ms·

Apple is trolling us on prices?

40 points by Lagogarda 7y ago

mrweasel 7y ago
Haven't the stand been debated to death by now? It seems like the general opinion is that they should just have made it a $5999 monitor, including the stand, but knocked $1000 of the price is you didn't want the stand.
- askafriend 7y ago
  Exactly this. The reason these components are priced like that is because VFX studios don't use stands or wheels. Everyone has mounts and the machines are locked in place. That's who the Mac Pro and XDR Monitor are aimed at. In fact, that's also why the XDR monitor doesn't have a webcam built-in like almost all modern monitors. Webcams are not allowed in many VFX studios. So if you want a stand or wheels designed to fit these ultra-niche components, that in and of itself is niche amongst the niche. The cost of R&D + materials for those parts will probably far exceed what Apple will ever recoup in sales. This isn't like the Apple Watch where they manufacture 60 million of them every year. There are no scale advantages here, it's just Apple doing enthusiasts a favor and making highly custom one-off work available.
  - vijaybritto 7y ago
    I'm pretty sure these stands and their moulds don't cost 1000+ dollars by any standard. Chinese manufacturers can make these at 10$ a piece
    - adamwathan 7y ago
      They are milled from solid blocks of aluminum, not created with a mould. In another thread another HN user pointed out that to buy a block of aluminum to mill something the size of the stand would cost $1400 from consumer facing suppliers.
      - duelingjello 7y ago
        That's comparing pears and oranges. At scale, things are much cheaper. The way retail works is divide retail price/2 and that's the wholesale price. It can't cost more than $500 to make. It probably costs $175±$75 at their volume.
      - rasz 7y ago
        Al is ~$2/kg, ~$10/kg in solid blocks https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/China-mill-5083-6061-6063-7075_62204064236.html https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/China-mill-5083-6061-... up to $55/kg including fancy milling from arbitrary sized solid block https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/5052-Aluminum-Solid-With-Anodize-And_62250058306.html https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/5052-Aluminum-Solid-W...
      - vijaybritto 7y ago
        I'm a mechanical engineer and I have worked in a foundry and in CNC machines, so I think I'm right here. The machining time in CNCs determine the product's price. You have to compare the iphone 11 with all its incredible amounts of tech at 1000$ and this angled aluminium mount costs the same! This is a clear example of "we priced it so much because we can"
  - nexuist 7y ago
    If they’re not expecting to make more than they spent on R&D, what was the point in even doing that R&D? If they know these options are the “niche amongst the niche,” why even offer them? Isn’t that a boneheaded business decision? Any PR they get for providing these options will be dwarfed by PR talking about their price tags.
    - londons_explore 7y ago
      Because the fact they even offer this super-high-end equipment helps their reputation and let's them sell more iPhones and watches.
  - lostmsu 7y ago
    Modern monitors have a webcam attached to them? Do you mean attached by the owner or built-in? Weird phrasing.
    - askafriend 7y ago
      Good catch, fixed.
  - goldcd 7y ago
    I agree - people are likely to already have stands. And for a mere additional $199 Apple will sell you a VESA mount to let you attach your standless monitor to your stand
- blihp 7y ago
  The article wasn't debating the stand so much as it was talking about the other 'accessories' (i.e. the wheels and cloth for the nano particle display.) So it appears that the stand was just testing the waters.
AmVess 7y ago
$59,945.00 for a fully loaded desktop PC with monitor sure does feel like this is an elaborate troll job. On the other hand, if they are in a position to command that sort of dosh for it, why not? With all the cash they have, I'd to see some innovation in technology versus a weird chassis design and adding zeros to price tags, though.
- holstvoogd 7y ago
  I think calling it a desktop pc is a bit of an understatement :P I have to say though, after buying a non-apple laptop recently, I feel at least macbooks are worth the extra 1k over what I paid just for build quality. I something with similar specs to my MBP for ~1600$ and it is just a piece of shitty plastic with a crappy trackpad & worse speakers than on a 90s phone. I'll gladly pay the premium to have apple harware I've learned hehe
  - mister_hn 7y ago
    sure, then how do you explain the continuous drama made here on HN and on Reddit about the faulty Keyboard (for 3 years), the speakers that "pop" (fresh on MBP 16") and thermal throttling? 1K extra doesn't make the product "pro" or "premium", especially if you don't allow people to upgrade it after the Warranty is expired (RAM and Disk soldered, nice).
    - duelingjello 7y ago
      See also: Numerous Louis Rossmann video rants about the smallest dust particles messing up butterfly keyboards. ;)
    - Betelgeuse90 7y ago
      FWIW, the popping speakers are a software related issue, many users who updated to a recent version of Catalina have reported the issue has been fixed for them. Also, thermal throttling has not really been an issue with the new 16" MBP. It can sustain well over base clock for indefinite periods it seems while still staying under the power budget.
holstvoogd 7y ago
What is the point of this kind of article? Don't want to pay 400,- for a set of premium wheels? Then don't buy them and be done with it. I mean, some people pay that for a pair of jeans. I think that is BS, so I don't buy such jeans. Problem solved. And I didn't even go around berating jeans companies for selling expensive jeans :o
- calcifer 7y ago
  > premium wheels What exactly is premium about them?
  - blueberry_47 7y ago
    The Apple logo
  - oeuviz 7y ago
    why does it matter?
goldcd 7y ago
It's the same approach that luxury car makers take, where the normal set of options could buy you a budget car. The people who are going to buy this are a self-selecting group who have the money, want 'the best' performance and want it from Apple. Yes, you could buy a third party monitor stand or wheels - but you're only saving a small percentage of the price and would have to look at your machine as being 'imperfect'. So you grit your teeth and pay. The people who wouldn't pay, have already built themselves some fugly hackintosh.
alanfranz 7y ago
The huge issue is: what are competitors doing? How can it be that in 2019 I can't have another trackpad which is comparable in quality to a 2009 Macbook Pro trackpad? How can it be that Windows 10, while slightly better than Windows 7 and 8, is still a terrible mess with regards to a ton of things (examples: hidpi, nonsensical settings organization, drivers requiring manual updates)? I won't start talking about Linux desktop, because, IMHO, that's the NCAA of desktops. Not the same league as Windows and Mac. Apple can put an incredible price tag on anything because other vendors are simply doing a terrible job just at coping.
- wayneftw 7y ago
  Competitors are occupying the vast majority of the market. Apple laptops and desktops comprise about 12% in the US and significantly less abroad. Comparable trackpads certainly do exist including all the gesture support in Windows or Linux. I have a lowly Acer E5-575G - a 5 year old machine at least - that provides exactly that. When was the last time you looked? Windows 10 itself has perfect support for hidpi, better settings organization than macOS and I can't remember the last time I've had to update a driver in the past decade... So, what are your specific complaints about hidpi or settings organization? You're right that Linux desktops aren't in the same league as Windows or Mac. They're actually much, much more flexible. I certainly put them in a different league after having switched. And I'm lazy. I wouldn't have switched if I had to fiddle with things all the time. I recommend Manjaro Linux with XFCE. I'll still use Windows for building Windows things or Macs for building Apple things. But that's just because of lock-in. Apple can put a 20-30% higher price on some of their products due to a combination of brilliant marketing and technical lock-in. Some people have gotten convinced that there's nothing for them but macOS. You'd definitely see a lot less people on Apple hardware if macOS could easily run on "clones" again as it once did though. That's why Apple will sue anyone who tries to even goes so far as to start a professional service for installing macOS on non-Apple machines.
mamcx 7y ago
Instead of prices, I think is storage and memory (of base configs for desktops/laptops) 128GB/256SSD/8GB is too low IMHO.
t-h-e-chief 7y ago
If you compare it to other server systems, it is pretty typical. I remember talking to Cisco about buying some lug nuts for our rack and they quoted me a price that was one-hundred times more than you could easily buy them for from a local supplier.

40 points by Lagogarda 7y ago

Haven't the stand been debated to death by now? It seems like the general opinion is that they should just have made it a $5999 monitor, including the stand, but knocked $1000 of the price is you didn't want the stand.

askafriend 7y ago
Exactly this. The reason these components are priced like that is because VFX studios don't use stands or wheels. Everyone has mounts and the machines are locked in place. That's who the Mac Pro and XDR Monitor are aimed at. In fact, that's also why the XDR monitor doesn't have a webcam built-in like almost all modern monitors. Webcams are not allowed in many VFX studios. So if you want a stand or wheels designed to fit these ultra-niche components, that in and of itself is niche amongst the niche. The cost of R&D + materials for those parts will probably far exceed what Apple will ever recoup in sales. This isn't like the Apple Watch where they manufacture 60 million of them every year. There are no scale advantages here, it's just Apple doing enthusiasts a favor and making highly custom one-off work available.
- vijaybritto 7y ago
  I'm pretty sure these stands and their moulds don't cost 1000+ dollars by any standard. Chinese manufacturers can make these at 10$ a piece
  - adamwathan 7y ago
    They are milled from solid blocks of aluminum, not created with a mould. In another thread another HN user pointed out that to buy a block of aluminum to mill something the size of the stand would cost $1400 from consumer facing suppliers.
    - duelingjello 7y ago
      That's comparing pears and oranges. At scale, things are much cheaper. The way retail works is divide retail price/2 and that's the wholesale price. It can't cost more than $500 to make. It probably costs $175±$75 at their volume.
    - rasz 7y ago
      Al is ~$2/kg, ~$10/kg in solid blocks https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/China-mill-5083-6061-6063-7075_62204064236.html https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/China-mill-5083-6061-... up to $55/kg including fancy milling from arbitrary sized solid block https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/5052-Aluminum-Solid-With-Anodize-And_62250058306.html https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/5052-Aluminum-Solid-W...
    - vijaybritto 7y ago
      I'm a mechanical engineer and I have worked in a foundry and in CNC machines, so I think I'm right here. The machining time in CNCs determine the product's price. You have to compare the iphone 11 with all its incredible amounts of tech at 1000$ and this angled aluminium mount costs the same! This is a clear example of "we priced it so much because we can"
- nexuist 7y ago
  If they’re not expecting to make more than they spent on R&D, what was the point in even doing that R&D? If they know these options are the “niche amongst the niche,” why even offer them? Isn’t that a boneheaded business decision? Any PR they get for providing these options will be dwarfed by PR talking about their price tags.
  - londons_explore 7y ago
    Because the fact they even offer this super-high-end equipment helps their reputation and let's them sell more iPhones and watches.
- lostmsu 7y ago
  Modern monitors have a webcam attached to them? Do you mean attached by the owner or built-in? Weird phrasing.
  - askafriend 7y ago
    Good catch, fixed.
- goldcd 7y ago
  I agree - people are likely to already have stands. And for a mere additional $199 Apple will sell you a VESA mount to let you attach your standless monitor to your stand
blihp 7y ago
The article wasn't debating the stand so much as it was talking about the other 'accessories' (i.e. the wheels and cloth for the nano particle display.) So it appears that the stand was just testing the waters.

AmVess 7y ago

$59,945.00 for a fully loaded desktop PC with monitor sure does feel like this is an elaborate troll job. On the other hand, if they are in a position to command that sort of dosh for it, why not? With all the cash they have, I'd to see some innovation in technology versus a weird chassis design and adding zeros to price tags, though.

holstvoogd 7y ago
I think calling it a desktop pc is a bit of an understatement :P I have to say though, after buying a non-apple laptop recently, I feel at least macbooks are worth the extra 1k over what I paid just for build quality. I something with similar specs to my MBP for ~1600$ and it is just a piece of shitty plastic with a crappy trackpad & worse speakers than on a 90s phone. I'll gladly pay the premium to have apple harware I've learned hehe
- mister_hn 7y ago
  sure, then how do you explain the continuous drama made here on HN and on Reddit about the faulty Keyboard (for 3 years), the speakers that "pop" (fresh on MBP 16") and thermal throttling? 1K extra doesn't make the product "pro" or "premium", especially if you don't allow people to upgrade it after the Warranty is expired (RAM and Disk soldered, nice).
  - duelingjello 7y ago
    See also: Numerous Louis Rossmann video rants about the smallest dust particles messing up butterfly keyboards. ;)
  - Betelgeuse90 7y ago
    FWIW, the popping speakers are a software related issue, many users who updated to a recent version of Catalina have reported the issue has been fixed for them. Also, thermal throttling has not really been an issue with the new 16" MBP. It can sustain well over base clock for indefinite periods it seems while still staying under the power budget.

holstvoogd 7y ago

What is the point of this kind of article? Don't want to pay 400,- for a set of premium wheels? Then don't buy them and be done with it. I mean, some people pay that for a pair of jeans. I think that is BS, so I don't buy such jeans. Problem solved. And I didn't even go around berating jeans companies for selling expensive jeans :o

calcifer 7y ago
> premium wheels What exactly is premium about them?
- blueberry_47 7y ago
  The Apple logo
- oeuviz 7y ago
  why does it matter?

goldcd 7y ago

It's the same approach that luxury car makers take, where the normal set of options could buy you a budget car. The people who are going to buy this are a self-selecting group who have the money, want 'the best' performance and want it from Apple. Yes, you could buy a third party monitor stand or wheels - but you're only saving a small percentage of the price and would have to look at your machine as being 'imperfect'. So you grit your teeth and pay. The people who wouldn't pay, have already built themselves some fugly hackintosh.

alanfranz 7y ago

The huge issue is: what are competitors doing? How can it be that in 2019 I can't have another trackpad which is comparable in quality to a 2009 Macbook Pro trackpad? How can it be that Windows 10, while slightly better than Windows 7 and 8, is still a terrible mess with regards to a ton of things (examples: hidpi, nonsensical settings organization, drivers requiring manual updates)? I won't start talking about Linux desktop, because, IMHO, that's the NCAA of desktops. Not the same league as Windows and Mac. Apple can put an incredible price tag on anything because other vendors are simply doing a terrible job just at coping.

wayneftw 7y ago
Competitors are occupying the vast majority of the market. Apple laptops and desktops comprise about 12% in the US and significantly less abroad. Comparable trackpads certainly do exist including all the gesture support in Windows or Linux. I have a lowly Acer E5-575G - a 5 year old machine at least - that provides exactly that. When was the last time you looked? Windows 10 itself has perfect support for hidpi, better settings organization than macOS and I can't remember the last time I've had to update a driver in the past decade... So, what are your specific complaints about hidpi or settings organization? You're right that Linux desktops aren't in the same league as Windows or Mac. They're actually much, much more flexible. I certainly put them in a different league after having switched. And I'm lazy. I wouldn't have switched if I had to fiddle with things all the time. I recommend Manjaro Linux with XFCE. I'll still use Windows for building Windows things or Macs for building Apple things. But that's just because of lock-in. Apple can put a 20-30% higher price on some of their products due to a combination of brilliant marketing and technical lock-in. Some people have gotten convinced that there's nothing for them but macOS. You'd definitely see a lot less people on Apple hardware if macOS could easily run on "clones" again as it once did though. That's why Apple will sue anyone who tries to even goes so far as to start a professional service for installing macOS on non-Apple machines.

mamcx 7y ago

Instead of prices, I think is storage and memory (of base configs for desktops/laptops) 128GB/256SSD/8GB is too low IMHO.

t-h-e-chief 7y ago

If you compare it to other server systems, it is pretty typical. I remember talking to Cisco about buying some lug nuts for our rack and they quoted me a price that was one-hundred times more than you could easily buy them for from a local supplier.