7 ms·

This isn't fun anymore (2017)

72 points by colinhb 7y ago

ThrowawayR2 7y ago
While I don't disagree with the rant, I note that the latest post on this gentleman's blog is today (December 10. 2019). Not using the internet isn't a real option anymore.
- ncmncm 7y ago
  So, he uses it, but has no fun.
- yellowapple 7y ago
  There's a difference between publishing to the Web and consuming published content on the Web. These complaints are about the state of the latter, as effected by less-than-benign actors doing the former. One can do the former without doing the latter (see also: Richard Stallman, who last I checked still doesn't use a web browser of any sort, yet somehow still maintains his own blog).
  - BlueTemplar 7y ago
    Huh, is there no FLOSS, Stallman-compatible browser?
    - krapp 7y ago
      There's no Stallman-compatible internet for him to use it on[0]. He goes through great pains to avoid identifying himself by accessing the internet directly, and to avoid interacting in any way with non-free content. "...I generally do not connect to web sites from my own machine, aside from a few sites I have some special relationship with. I usually fetch web pages from other sites by sending mail to a program (see https://git.savannah.gnu.org/git/womb/hacks.git) that fetches them, much like wget, and then mails them back to me. Then I look at them using a web browser, unless it is easy to see the text in the HTML page directly. I usually try lynx first, then a graphical browser if the page needs it (using konqueror, which won't fetch from other sites in such a situation)." [0]https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html
      - BlueTemplar 7y ago
        Thanks, but this very quote names a browser that he uses?
        krapp 7y ago
        Fair enough, he "uses" a web browser, for very limited definitions of use. His beliefs about the inherently non-free nature of the web and his fears about surveillance still make it infeasible for him to consume the web directly, unless it's with someone else's browser.
        BlueTemplar 7y ago
        I'm pretty much boycotting Facebook/Twitter(/Discord), and seriously thinking about boycotting YouTube/Reddit - am I not using the Web (or the Internet - those are not the same...) ?
MrEldritch 7y ago
> "If people like me can't be sure our home life won't leak onto the sidebars of corporate presentation, or the recommendations of software our kids are using, we'll stop using it entirely." What a fucking joke. You and I both know there's no escape, here; we're trapped here forever, and things will always only get worse and they will never get better, and there isn't a god-damned thing we can do about it.
- loopz 7y ago
  You can start improving and reap what you sow in your next incarnation.
ncmncm 7y ago
I have no experience with what this guy is talking about. Maybe "They" are tracking me just as assiduously as him, and desperately trying to get their ads projected onto my retinas, but I never see any online ads at all. Hence, I never see targeted ads. If I were ever to turn off UMatrix, I probably would be shocked. But why would I do that? So my main complaint about The Web These Days is that everything works badly, when it works at all. Amazon search can never bring up what I want to buy, even when I know it exactly. Ebay, likewise. Google cannot find anything that might be vaguely connected to a Product they would rather I were searching for instead. Google Maps was going all to hell until recently, but appears to have recovered, some, and arrested the slide.
- gumby 7y ago
  soothing tone oh, just enable that sweet tracking and we'll know enough to give you exactly what you're looking for. Poor you, you didn't realize you were making it impossible to help you. /soothing tone I only read part of the article but as far as I got the author seemed to feel he would not be able to resist the blandishments of the advertiser/spies.
- Ill_ban_myself 7y ago
  There's one big difference here, I'd bet. Do you have children? Or a spouse? Because as assiduously as you can corral your own content for pesky ads there will be devices, services, and platforms that your children or your spouse use that will leak into your life. The day your child asks you why youtube keeps giving him ads for diabetes medication and you have to face your still unresolved feelings about your mother's death and explain that he'll probably one day have to have daily injections and a few toes amputated and maybe deal with kidney failure is the day you'll probably feel the same as the author of this article.
  - satyrnein 7y ago
    I pay YouTube not so I don't see ads, but so my kids don't see ads.
    - 7y ago
d-d 7y ago
The internet used to be a paradise of sorts. Sure, there was the occasional troll, affiliate link or Viagra ad in your inbox; but that was the spice of the 'net. Today it's all spice, no curry.
axaxs 7y ago
I used to dream of switching out roots and making a new internet, but that seems like it'd never work. What about a TLD instead, with the simple tenent that no advertising or tracking was allowed, ever? Doing so would get your domain sinkholed. Something like that done right, with some free or ultra cheap tier for honest users, I could see attracting users. And more users maybe more companies would want to join in. I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud. I share the sentiments of the author, and find the modern web gross. Outside of maybe 4 or 5 websites(this one included), I don't use it much anymore. And this isn't just an old man hating change, it's objectively much different, and all worse.
- drdaeman 7y ago
  > Doing so would get your domain sinkholed Is there any party out there trusted to wield this much power to decide what's "advertising" or "tracking"? Given that modern technology is all about running programs on the Internet. And assuming this could grow into something big, and won't just wither or die like myriad of networks that were out there. .nojs/.nocookie TLDs could be a fun idea, though. Doesn't need any trusted third party to govern, just a bit of browser vendors cooperation (so, a slim chance).
  - t0astbread 7y ago
    Why nojs/nocookie? Advertisers will still find their ways and it'll cut off a large chunk of legitimate developers.
    - drdaeman 7y ago
      Why not? The web of late '90s (as I remember it) worked just fine without those. Ability to serve only documents but not programs, and inability to persist any identifiers would mean that both website developers and visitors would know that website cannot be disruptive, and would serve content (or nothing of substance at all). I expect that advertisers won't go there because it contradicts modern beliefs in targeted advertising and how behavioral data obtained by tracking is worth everything. And it's virtually impossible to distinguish between paid-for "native" advertising and honest product recommendation.
jimbob45 7y ago
Y'all been to Newgrounds recently? It's still incredibly fresh and creative, just like it was back in the day. In fact, you yourself can contribute to it with tools that make it easier than ever! I'm beginning to think people just never liked the old web to begin with because they had to put real thought into contributing.
joe_the_user 7y ago
The web isn't as much fun in many ways but seeing the jacket I looked at four years ago and rejected, appear over and over and over again since then, actually gives me much more of a chuckle than today's grim headlines.
- d-d 7y ago
  Email me your details. I must set the jacket free.
  - symplee 7y ago
    https://giphy.com/gifs/wgcm7vctFPlfO/html5 https://giphy.com/gifs/wgcm7vctFPlfO/html5 https://giphy.com/gifs/sMoT7sVhwBebC/html5 https://giphy.com/gifs/sMoT7sVhwBebC/html5
s9w 7y ago
The listening part is what is really the most mind-blowing. I routinely get mobile ads about things I only talked about with others and never typed anywhere. Google can deny as much as they want: They listen to every single word
- nineteen999 7y ago
  I run a microphone blocker on my phone for these purposes. Before that I used to wonder whether they were listening in; or it were merely coincidence and our brain just connects the dots where it shouldn't.
  - toper-centage 7y ago
    Is your blocker an app? Is it possible that the OS can override hardware access reserved by apps?
    - nineteen999 7y ago
      It is an app, and it does work to some degree (eg. Shazam doesn't work with it activated). I don't see why the OS couldn't override it. I'm under no illusions that it couldn't be done.
  - stallmanite 7y ago
    So did you notice an effect after blocking the microphone? Did the ads seeved to you change as a result?
    - nineteen999 7y ago
      Not really. And I can't say that I have formed an opinion either way yet. It's more of an experiment than anything else. I tend to not really browse much on my mobile anyway.
- gambiting 7y ago
  I still don't believe that. Not even a little bit. It's just that advertisers are absolutely fantastic at guessing what you might want, even if you have never ever actually looked at a product yourself. Maybe you were talking to your friends about something, and sure, you never searched for it, but your friend did while connected to your wifi - now your ip address is forever associated with that search, even if you yourself have never searched for it. Then when you suddenly get an ad for this product it feels like google must be listening to you. I had this conversation with my mum few weeks ago - she was absolutely adamant that Google must be spying on her, because she spoke to me about getting a roomba on the phone, she has never searched for it, and yet she's getting ads for a roomba everywhere. They MUST be listening to her. Except that I reminded her that a week earlier I sent her an amazon link to a roomba, which she clicked and therefore is forever branded as someone who is looking for roombas. No conspiracy required, she simply forgot she has actually looked at a roomba-related website. It's just...if they were really listening, it would have implications in both power and data usage, there would be a smoking gun somewhere - and there just isn't. Advertisers can figure out what you want even without listening to what you say.
bransonf 7y ago
Can I just take a moment to say how much I appreciate Hacker News? In an internet filled with advertising, tracking, toxicity and trolls, HN is a relief. The design is simple, fast and functional. The community does a tremendous job of legislating itself. The content is incredibly valuable. Hacker News reminds me of the internet I grew up loving, not the thing it has become.
- exergy 7y ago
  Yep. Much as I rail against the overly pedantic nature of many, many comments here, this place is a veritable treasure trove compared to Reddit. On Reddit, every single fucking thread gets derailed by shitty puns, basement-tier humour or a one-liner with all the nuance of a tweet. Doesn't matter how sombre a topic, some dickhead is going to make an oh-so-clever quip and legions of fellow dickheads will line up to suck his dick and upvote it to the top. Even when there are substantive comments, the replies to those comments rarely make for useful reading. "Take my upvote and fuck off" "Nice" "Mom's spaghetti" "/r/Suicidebywords" on a comment about dick sizes ... and on and on Not to mention the fact that Reddit's recent algorithms upvote the shittiest content to the front page to begin with. I mean, /r/dankmemes? /r/memeeconomy? /r/wholesome memes? Fuck outta here with that shit. There are exceptions, of course. /r/financialindependence comes to mind. But overall, it's become an out of control shitshow that I visit ever less frequently. So yeah, thank god for HN.
  - rimliu 7y ago
    Reddit is way more enjoyable than HN. On reddit you can have serious discussions and you can have fun. HN is trying too hard to be serious. It may be interesting, but rarely it is fun.
    - exergy 7y ago
      Couldn't disagree more. If I want fun, I'd watch some comedian on YouTube, way higher quality. If I wanted serious discussion, Reddit has too much noise for the signal that it does offer. The Reddit of today is about posting the "funniest" screenshots from Twitter, things like blackpeopletwitter, whitepeopletwitter, murderedbywords and so on.
baked_ziti 7y ago
Don't use the web on your phone.
proxybop 7y ago
I need to get rid of my Alexa cuz I know it’s listening but it’s such a convenient timer
- boring_twenties 7y ago
  If simply switching things on/off on a timer is your killer feature, and not the voice activation, you can just use the free Home Assistant software.
  - proxybop 7y ago
    I use my voice to set the timer :/ That's pretty much all me and the spouse do...would get a HomePod but they're so expensive
charlesism 7y ago
I think of the Internet today as being in the “gathering” stage. All our data is just being slurped up, hanging around on the servers of a few dozen companies. It’s alarming, to be sure, but just you wait! A few years from now - when computers are faster and storage is cheaper - we’ll enter the “disseminating” stage. That’s the stage we’ll enter as soon as an entire internet’s worth of content becomes easily transferable. That’s when all your private information from 2019 (your medical history, gmail messages, bank details, your search and browsing and shopping history, your private photos, etc) will leak to the public. It’s just a question of time because any morsel of data only needs to leak once to be henceforth online forever. It will be a complete nightmare.

72 points by colinhb 7y ago

While I don't disagree with the rant, I note that the latest post on this gentleman's blog is today (December 10. 2019). Not using the internet isn't a real option anymore.

ncmncm 7y ago
So, he uses it, but has no fun.
yellowapple 7y ago
There's a difference between publishing to the Web and consuming published content on the Web. These complaints are about the state of the latter, as effected by less-than-benign actors doing the former. One can do the former without doing the latter (see also: Richard Stallman, who last I checked still doesn't use a web browser of any sort, yet somehow still maintains his own blog).
- BlueTemplar 7y ago
  Huh, is there no FLOSS, Stallman-compatible browser?
  - krapp 7y ago
    There's no Stallman-compatible internet for him to use it on[0]. He goes through great pains to avoid identifying himself by accessing the internet directly, and to avoid interacting in any way with non-free content. "...I generally do not connect to web sites from my own machine, aside from a few sites I have some special relationship with. I usually fetch web pages from other sites by sending mail to a program (see https://git.savannah.gnu.org/git/womb/hacks.git) that fetches them, much like wget, and then mails them back to me. Then I look at them using a web browser, unless it is easy to see the text in the HTML page directly. I usually try lynx first, then a graphical browser if the page needs it (using konqueror, which won't fetch from other sites in such a situation)." [0]https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html
    - BlueTemplar 7y ago
      Thanks, but this very quote names a browser that he uses?
      - krapp 7y ago
        Fair enough, he "uses" a web browser, for very limited definitions of use. His beliefs about the inherently non-free nature of the web and his fears about surveillance still make it infeasible for him to consume the web directly, unless it's with someone else's browser.
        BlueTemplar 7y ago
        I'm pretty much boycotting Facebook/Twitter(/Discord), and seriously thinking about boycotting YouTube/Reddit - am I not using the Web (or the Internet - those are not the same...) ?

MrEldritch 7y ago

> "If people like me can't be sure our home life won't leak onto the sidebars of corporate presentation, or the recommendations of software our kids are using, we'll stop using it entirely." What a fucking joke. You and I both know there's no escape, here; we're trapped here forever, and things will always only get worse and they will never get better, and there isn't a god-damned thing we can do about it.

loopz 7y ago
You can start improving and reap what you sow in your next incarnation.

ncmncm 7y ago

I have no experience with what this guy is talking about. Maybe "They" are tracking me just as assiduously as him, and desperately trying to get their ads projected onto my retinas, but I never see any online ads at all. Hence, I never see targeted ads. If I were ever to turn off UMatrix, I probably would be shocked. But why would I do that? So my main complaint about The Web These Days is that everything works badly, when it works at all. Amazon search can never bring up what I want to buy, even when I know it exactly. Ebay, likewise. Google cannot find anything that might be vaguely connected to a Product they would rather I were searching for instead. Google Maps was going all to hell until recently, but appears to have recovered, some, and arrested the slide.

gumby 7y ago
soothing tone oh, just enable that sweet tracking and we'll know enough to give you exactly what you're looking for. Poor you, you didn't realize you were making it impossible to help you. /soothing tone I only read part of the article but as far as I got the author seemed to feel he would not be able to resist the blandishments of the advertiser/spies.
Ill_ban_myself 7y ago
There's one big difference here, I'd bet. Do you have children? Or a spouse? Because as assiduously as you can corral your own content for pesky ads there will be devices, services, and platforms that your children or your spouse use that will leak into your life. The day your child asks you why youtube keeps giving him ads for diabetes medication and you have to face your still unresolved feelings about your mother's death and explain that he'll probably one day have to have daily injections and a few toes amputated and maybe deal with kidney failure is the day you'll probably feel the same as the author of this article.
- satyrnein 7y ago
  I pay YouTube not so I don't see ads, but so my kids don't see ads.
  - 7y ago

d-d 7y ago

The internet used to be a paradise of sorts. Sure, there was the occasional troll, affiliate link or Viagra ad in your inbox; but that was the spice of the 'net. Today it's all spice, no curry.

axaxs 7y ago

I used to dream of switching out roots and making a new internet, but that seems like it'd never work. What about a TLD instead, with the simple tenent that no advertising or tracking was allowed, ever? Doing so would get your domain sinkholed. Something like that done right, with some free or ultra cheap tier for honest users, I could see attracting users. And more users maybe more companies would want to join in. I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud. I share the sentiments of the author, and find the modern web gross. Outside of maybe 4 or 5 websites(this one included), I don't use it much anymore. And this isn't just an old man hating change, it's objectively much different, and all worse.

drdaeman 7y ago
> Doing so would get your domain sinkholed Is there any party out there trusted to wield this much power to decide what's "advertising" or "tracking"? Given that modern technology is all about running programs on the Internet. And assuming this could grow into something big, and won't just wither or die like myriad of networks that were out there. .nojs/.nocookie TLDs could be a fun idea, though. Doesn't need any trusted third party to govern, just a bit of browser vendors cooperation (so, a slim chance).
- t0astbread 7y ago
  Why nojs/nocookie? Advertisers will still find their ways and it'll cut off a large chunk of legitimate developers.
  - drdaeman 7y ago
    Why not? The web of late '90s (as I remember it) worked just fine without those. Ability to serve only documents but not programs, and inability to persist any identifiers would mean that both website developers and visitors would know that website cannot be disruptive, and would serve content (or nothing of substance at all). I expect that advertisers won't go there because it contradicts modern beliefs in targeted advertising and how behavioral data obtained by tracking is worth everything. And it's virtually impossible to distinguish between paid-for "native" advertising and honest product recommendation.

jimbob45 7y ago

Y'all been to Newgrounds recently? It's still incredibly fresh and creative, just like it was back in the day. In fact, you yourself can contribute to it with tools that make it easier than ever! I'm beginning to think people just never liked the old web to begin with because they had to put real thought into contributing.

joe_the_user 7y ago

The web isn't as much fun in many ways but seeing the jacket I looked at four years ago and rejected, appear over and over and over again since then, actually gives me much more of a chuckle than today's grim headlines.

d-d 7y ago
Email me your details. I must set the jacket free.
- symplee 7y ago
  https://giphy.com/gifs/wgcm7vctFPlfO/html5 https://giphy.com/gifs/wgcm7vctFPlfO/html5 https://giphy.com/gifs/sMoT7sVhwBebC/html5 https://giphy.com/gifs/sMoT7sVhwBebC/html5

s9w 7y ago

The listening part is what is really the most mind-blowing. I routinely get mobile ads about things I only talked about with others and never typed anywhere. Google can deny as much as they want: They listen to every single word

nineteen999 7y ago
I run a microphone blocker on my phone for these purposes. Before that I used to wonder whether they were listening in; or it were merely coincidence and our brain just connects the dots where it shouldn't.
- toper-centage 7y ago
  Is your blocker an app? Is it possible that the OS can override hardware access reserved by apps?
  - nineteen999 7y ago
    It is an app, and it does work to some degree (eg. Shazam doesn't work with it activated). I don't see why the OS couldn't override it. I'm under no illusions that it couldn't be done.
- stallmanite 7y ago
  So did you notice an effect after blocking the microphone? Did the ads seeved to you change as a result?
  - nineteen999 7y ago
    Not really. And I can't say that I have formed an opinion either way yet. It's more of an experiment than anything else. I tend to not really browse much on my mobile anyway.
gambiting 7y ago
I still don't believe that. Not even a little bit. It's just that advertisers are absolutely fantastic at guessing what you might want, even if you have never ever actually looked at a product yourself. Maybe you were talking to your friends about something, and sure, you never searched for it, but your friend did while connected to your wifi - now your ip address is forever associated with that search, even if you yourself have never searched for it. Then when you suddenly get an ad for this product it feels like google must be listening to you. I had this conversation with my mum few weeks ago - she was absolutely adamant that Google must be spying on her, because she spoke to me about getting a roomba on the phone, she has never searched for it, and yet she's getting ads for a roomba everywhere. They MUST be listening to her. Except that I reminded her that a week earlier I sent her an amazon link to a roomba, which she clicked and therefore is forever branded as someone who is looking for roombas. No conspiracy required, she simply forgot she has actually looked at a roomba-related website. It's just...if they were really listening, it would have implications in both power and data usage, there would be a smoking gun somewhere - and there just isn't. Advertisers can figure out what you want even without listening to what you say.

bransonf 7y ago

Can I just take a moment to say how much I appreciate Hacker News? In an internet filled with advertising, tracking, toxicity and trolls, HN is a relief. The design is simple, fast and functional. The community does a tremendous job of legislating itself. The content is incredibly valuable. Hacker News reminds me of the internet I grew up loving, not the thing it has become.

exergy 7y ago
Yep. Much as I rail against the overly pedantic nature of many, many comments here, this place is a veritable treasure trove compared to Reddit. On Reddit, every single fucking thread gets derailed by shitty puns, basement-tier humour or a one-liner with all the nuance of a tweet. Doesn't matter how sombre a topic, some dickhead is going to make an oh-so-clever quip and legions of fellow dickheads will line up to suck his dick and upvote it to the top. Even when there are substantive comments, the replies to those comments rarely make for useful reading. "Take my upvote and fuck off" "Nice" "Mom's spaghetti" "/r/Suicidebywords" on a comment about dick sizes ... and on and on Not to mention the fact that Reddit's recent algorithms upvote the shittiest content to the front page to begin with. I mean, /r/dankmemes? /r/memeeconomy? /r/wholesome memes? Fuck outta here with that shit. There are exceptions, of course. /r/financialindependence comes to mind. But overall, it's become an out of control shitshow that I visit ever less frequently. So yeah, thank god for HN.
- rimliu 7y ago
  Reddit is way more enjoyable than HN. On reddit you can have serious discussions and you can have fun. HN is trying too hard to be serious. It may be interesting, but rarely it is fun.
  - exergy 7y ago
    Couldn't disagree more. If I want fun, I'd watch some comedian on YouTube, way higher quality. If I wanted serious discussion, Reddit has too much noise for the signal that it does offer. The Reddit of today is about posting the "funniest" screenshots from Twitter, things like blackpeopletwitter, whitepeopletwitter, murderedbywords and so on.

baked_ziti 7y ago

Don't use the web on your phone.

proxybop 7y ago

I need to get rid of my Alexa cuz I know it’s listening but it’s such a convenient timer

boring_twenties 7y ago
If simply switching things on/off on a timer is your killer feature, and not the voice activation, you can just use the free Home Assistant software.
- proxybop 7y ago
  I use my voice to set the timer :/ That's pretty much all me and the spouse do...would get a HomePod but they're so expensive

charlesism 7y ago

I think of the Internet today as being in the “gathering” stage. All our data is just being slurped up, hanging around on the servers of a few dozen companies. It’s alarming, to be sure, but just you wait! A few years from now - when computers are faster and storage is cheaper - we’ll enter the “disseminating” stage. That’s the stage we’ll enter as soon as an entire internet’s worth of content becomes easily transferable. That’s when all your private information from 2019 (your medical history, gmail messages, bank details, your search and browsing and shopping history, your private photos, etc) will leak to the public. It’s just a question of time because any morsel of data only needs to leak once to be henceforth online forever. It will be a complete nightmare.