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Speaking as a college dropout, the grass is always greener. On the one hand, I've never had my lack of a degree be an issue in tech, especially startups. Some

by iooi 7y ago

Speaking as a college dropout, the grass is always greener. On the one hand, I've never had my lack of a degree be an issue in tech, especially startups. Some founders even place a weird bonus on being a dropout and see you as more of a hustler than degree-holding employees. On the other hand, there are some opportunities that are closed off to me unless I decide to finish my degree. For example, I would have liked to get an MBA or go to law school for fun, but those options are completely closed off. You absolutely must have a four-year degree. Another one that came up recently, I've been thinking of taking a break from tech and going into public service, all the jobs I saw in the three-letter agency I was interested in also had a hard requirement on a four-year degree. A degree isn't necessary for everyone, it certainly wasn't for me and it's nice that I had almost two years as a head start on my career in tech. However, I wouldn't encourage people to drop out. Having a degree gives you options. You're better off with those options than without. You don't _have_ to take out 200k in loans. There's fantastic public education systems like CUNY that you can take advantage of.

52-6F-62 7y ago
I’m in very much the same boat as you except in Canada. You can’t join most public service jobs, police... though I think CSIS and CSEC recently changed their requirements but you have to be damned good. Don’t quote me on that, however. Anyway my conclusion is the same as yours. I’d even planned on going back part time as there were some adult grants offered but they were largely removed by our most recent provincial government in the course of a large number of education cuts.
redisman 7y ago
When did you drop out? I went straight into the workforce rather than college 11 years ago but I feel like especially in the US the situation today might be pretty different for entry-level positions. Your average hiring manager might just put you at the bottom of a long pile of CS grads.
WalterBright 7y ago
> You don't _have_ to take out 200k in loans. The University of Washington is a well-regarded school, and it costs about $30K/year including room, board, and books. Although it isn't an elite school, you can get an elite education there with careful selection of courses.
- malvosenior 7y ago
  $120K (for a BS) is still a lot of money to owe straight out of university. I think it would be hard to justify getting that in debt for most degrees.
  - Aeolun 7y ago
    I have the same BS and I owe $6000, 120K is most definitely too much.
  - joncrane 7y ago
    The point is that UW offers degrees that are easily worth it at that price.
    - malvosenior 7y ago
      I don’t think a good CS degree is “easily” worth $120k.
      - WalterBright 7y ago
        You'd be right if you got the CS degree by taking the easiest classes, doing as little as possible, and partying. On the other hand, if you carefully select the courses, work to get the most out of the opportunities there, etc., you can get a very valuable education at UW. I've seen it too many times for that to be a fluke. UW isn't going to hold your hand, it's up to you. There are a very large number of local UW graduates who became wealthy.
        malvosenior 7y ago
        The same can be said about any education (even self taught). My point is 120k is a lot of debt. As a hiring manager I don’t even care if you have a degree, I just want to see you can ship. There are a lot of viable alternatives to that 120k, as you say you just have to work hard to succeed, regardless of chosen path.
    - 7y ago
clairity 7y ago
> "For example, I would have liked to get an MBA or go to law school for fun, but those options are completely closed off. You absolutely must have a four-year degree." an MBA curriculum is not materially different from that of a BA in business, so if you want the knowledge, just get the BA in business, which then also confers upon you the desired bachelor's degree in the process. an MBA doesn't really build up from an undergrad degree (vs. an engineering degree, for example). the difference, of course, is that MBA-seekers will come in with work experience, have a professional network, be a little older, have a little more independence/focus, etc.
boring_twenties 7y ago
Are you sure that was a hard requirement, and not just a stated one? My earliest jobs all stated that in their requirements, but were happy to interview and hire me anyway. (Later on, "or equivalent experience" became popular.) I've never worked for the government but wasn't Edward Snowden an NSA employee while also being a high school dropout?
- stonogo 7y ago
  He was a contractor, which is the same mistake the grandparent post makes. Yes, government employment with most TLAs requires a degree. But most government work is not undertaken by government employees -- it's contracted out, e.g. to Lockheed, Leidos, Booz Allen Hamilton, etc. Those organizations do hire people without degrees; I know this because I worked with lots of them for many years. Practically speaking, there are a relatively tiny number of actual government employees in tech, and they collaborate with or oversee a comparatively huge number of contractors.
  - boring_twenties 7y ago
    You're right of course, he worked for Booz. Forgot that part.

by iooi 7y ago

52-6F-62 7y ago

I’m in very much the same boat as you except in Canada. You can’t join most public service jobs, police... though I think CSIS and CSEC recently changed their requirements but you have to be damned good. Don’t quote me on that, however. Anyway my conclusion is the same as yours. I’d even planned on going back part time as there were some adult grants offered but they were largely removed by our most recent provincial government in the course of a large number of education cuts.

redisman 7y ago

When did you drop out? I went straight into the workforce rather than college 11 years ago but I feel like especially in the US the situation today might be pretty different for entry-level positions. Your average hiring manager might just put you at the bottom of a long pile of CS grads.

WalterBright 7y ago

> You don't _have_ to take out 200k in loans. The University of Washington is a well-regarded school, and it costs about $30K/year including room, board, and books. Although it isn't an elite school, you can get an elite education there with careful selection of courses.

malvosenior 7y ago
$120K (for a BS) is still a lot of money to owe straight out of university. I think it would be hard to justify getting that in debt for most degrees.
- Aeolun 7y ago
  I have the same BS and I owe $6000, 120K is most definitely too much.
- joncrane 7y ago
  The point is that UW offers degrees that are easily worth it at that price.
  - malvosenior 7y ago
    I don’t think a good CS degree is “easily” worth $120k.
    - WalterBright 7y ago
      You'd be right if you got the CS degree by taking the easiest classes, doing as little as possible, and partying. On the other hand, if you carefully select the courses, work to get the most out of the opportunities there, etc., you can get a very valuable education at UW. I've seen it too many times for that to be a fluke. UW isn't going to hold your hand, it's up to you. There are a very large number of local UW graduates who became wealthy.
      - malvosenior 7y ago
        The same can be said about any education (even self taught). My point is 120k is a lot of debt. As a hiring manager I don’t even care if you have a degree, I just want to see you can ship. There are a lot of viable alternatives to that 120k, as you say you just have to work hard to succeed, regardless of chosen path.
  - 7y ago

clairity 7y ago

> "For example, I would have liked to get an MBA or go to law school for fun, but those options are completely closed off. You absolutely must have a four-year degree." an MBA curriculum is not materially different from that of a BA in business, so if you want the knowledge, just get the BA in business, which then also confers upon you the desired bachelor's degree in the process. an MBA doesn't really build up from an undergrad degree (vs. an engineering degree, for example). the difference, of course, is that MBA-seekers will come in with work experience, have a professional network, be a little older, have a little more independence/focus, etc.

boring_twenties 7y ago

Are you sure that was a hard requirement, and not just a stated one? My earliest jobs all stated that in their requirements, but were happy to interview and hire me anyway. (Later on, "or equivalent experience" became popular.) I've never worked for the government but wasn't Edward Snowden an NSA employee while also being a high school dropout?

stonogo 7y ago
He was a contractor, which is the same mistake the grandparent post makes. Yes, government employment with most TLAs requires a degree. But most government work is not undertaken by government employees -- it's contracted out, e.g. to Lockheed, Leidos, Booz Allen Hamilton, etc. Those organizations do hire people without degrees; I know this because I worked with lots of them for many years. Practically speaking, there are a relatively tiny number of actual government employees in tech, and they collaborate with or oversee a comparatively huge number of contractors.
- boring_twenties 7y ago
  You're right of course, he worked for Booz. Forgot that part.