12 ms·

All this back-and-forth about whether and how it's nature or nurture. The point of modern gender freedom is not to deny there is a strong nature influence, it's

by aklemm 7y ago

All this back-and-forth about whether and how it's nature or nurture. The point of modern gender freedom is not to deny there is a strong nature influence, it's to nurture kids to go whichever directions they like. All these anecdotes about how this kid and that kid displayed common traditional gender preferences seem to be offered as an argument against trying to upset the traditional nature of these preferences. Sure, maybe only 5% of girls are ever going to want to race cars, but the idea is to make room those 5%, and that takes conscience effort.

isolli 7y ago
Agreed. You could make a similar point about race when it comes to sport abilities. It would be horrific to offer sports activities to children based on race, even though, in effect, some children will have a much smaller chance of becoming professionals at some sports than others. But let's never discourage a kid who wants to try whatever he or she likes!
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  >some children will have a much smaller chance of becoming professionals // But not directly because of their race (except as much as racism applies).
atom-morgan 7y ago
> The point of modern gender freedom is not to deny there is a strong nature influence, Are you sure about that?
- aklemm 7y ago
  I hope so, but I'm more sure that claiming progressives are trying to deny nature altogether is a useful straw-man for detractors with evidence only from the fringes. But how could you and I be more sure of what's really going on?
  - LanceH 7y ago
    Perhaps the progressive movement should dig a little deeper for "proof" that a mere difference in rates of participation. The mere fact more men do something seems to constitute both proof that there is systematic sexism and that those males who are over represented are sexist. It gets tiring.
    - rtkwe 7y ago
      The problem is it's basically impossible to raise a kid free from acculturation about gender norms to get the best data on nature vs nurture, even if the home environment is set up to be neutral about gender roles they're going to interact with the outside world which still has a lot of gender bias in job roles. My stance is if there is a natural preference it's probably slight and even if it isn't we should build a system that silos people into jobs because most people like them may prefer to do a particular thing.
      - LanceH 7y ago
        It's not just about denying nature, but denying all the choices along the way by so many parties. You see something like, Company XYZ hires 2/3's men for something. They are called sexist, the people working there are sexist, it is a hostile work environment, etc... and it's the 2/3's number that is offered as "proof". Further, just proposing that nature is the cause can get a person fired. My stance is that lack of proof is being met with lack of proof by a group that is tired of being the target of constant accusations.
    - mhuffman 7y ago
      > Perhaps the progressive movement should dig a little deeper for "proof" that a mere difference in rates of participation. This is the basis of "critical X theory", the new non-scientific, default theory for all of society's woes! So if there are any differences between two groups of people, it is assumed from the outset that there is a systematic (evil!) force causing that difference, typically to the detriment of a (perceived, in the case of women) minority group! So, for example, if there are more men in high-paying jobs, regardless of what the job is, that is Prima facie evidence of current systematic sexism against women to keep them out. Same with the fact that there are higher rates of Black people in prison, or lower standardized test scores for Black children are, in themselves, proof that there is current systematic racial bias against them by White people. This has resulted in incredible "solutions" from adherents to this type of theory to this, such as The Progressive Stack, in classrooms[2] It is noteworthy, that this does not go the other way around! So, for example, the fact that such a small rate of East Asians are in prison, or higher rates of high salaries, or higher standardized test scores, are not evidence of pro-East-Asian bias, it is simply accepted as a combination of nature and nurture that works out for them! However, the fact that a small percentage of East Asians are represented in film and TV, is taken as evidence of coordinated, systemic bias to keep them out. [1] https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/critical-theory/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/critical-theory/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_stack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_stack
ramblerman 7y ago
> it’s to nurture kids to go whichever directions they like Surely you mean to let them go whichever “directions” they like. But I’m not sure that phrasing was accidental.
- aklemm 7y ago
  What?
Rerarom 7y ago
> maybe only 5% of girls are ever going to want to race cars, but the idea is to make room those 5% This is something that should be said more frequently, maybe packaged up in a catchy slogan, as it would enjoy nearly universal agreement. Whoever does that will end the culture war.
pbhjpbhj 7y ago
That's the correct way to see things but it's contrary to public policies that say things like "there are less girls doing physics, so we're going to make quotas to get more girls doing physics". That's not supporting individual propensities at all. Overwhelmingly the feminist position that's pushed to the fore is "any lack of equal representation of females in a roles that're desirable is down to patriarchal actions and unrelated to any natural differences between the sexes; which differences are an illusion".
- smush 7y ago
  Wow, parent comment and this one summing up what often turn into X000 comment flame wars that dang has to bag up and send out to the flag truck, now that is a feat of summarization. > Overwhelmingly the feminist position that's pushed to the fore is "any lack of equal representation of females in a roles that're desirable is down to patriarchal actions and unrelated to any natural differences between the sexes; which differences are an illusion". How do we as a society address this point? Whether one argues that the above statement has merit (me) or not, many people on both sides (and probably me in many cases) have such emotional investment in their points that attempting to soberly look at where society is and where society should be on the spectrum between 'the above statement is categorically true globally in 100% of cases' and 'the above statement is categorically false globally in 100% of cases' can feel to me like trying to do laproscopic open-heart brain surgery.
  - dhshahsndeisjwn 7y ago
    I'd have more sympathy for critiques of feminism (and similar policies designed to help minorities) if even basic indices of equality like pay for equal work were fixed, and there wasn't clear evidence of discrimination on grounds of gender in interviewing, police treatment etc.
    - smush 7y ago
      In your opinion, is that viewpoint shared by a plurality or majority of what we can loosely define as the feminist crowd and adherents? Admittedly, I don't have a big world-shattering new point to add or logical argument to segue to based on the results of the question, I'm just curious.
Pigo 7y ago
Anybody that is not making room for girls to play with race cars, if they want, was is a jerk in the past, present, and future. Unless they are Betty Draper, I can't imagine a parent that would take a toy away from their kid.
- dhshahsndeisjwn 7y ago
  Except that many girls are made to feel abnormal for expressing an interest in stereotypically male activities (as are boys in reverse). The key is to acknowledge first that our society is incredibly gendered (and racist) in ways we often oblivious to.
  - Pigo 7y ago
    I've never studied parenting across the country, and I acknowledge that there are definitely cultures around the world where women are treated like property, but I've never witnessed a parent enforcing some gender stereotype for toys. It's hard to imagine a parent even caring what toy a kid is playing with, unless they are hurting someone.
    - circlefavshape 7y ago
      It's much more subtle than that. A child isn't raised by his/her parents alone. If you have daughters, your family and friends (and their friends) will by default mostly buy them stereotypical girls toys
    - brazzy 7y ago
      Then your experience and your imagination are rather limited. Just a few quotes from /r/Parenting: "BUT his dad had a conniption when he found out that I bought him a baby doll and he thinks that he should not play with “girl” toys." https://www.reddit.com/r/Parenting/comments/b403o6/how_do_you_feel_about_toddler_boys_playing_with/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Parenting/comments/b403o6/how_do_yo... "A lot of adults (men, women, young, old) make snarky comments in my son's presence about his toy selections (doll houses, play kitchen sets)." https://www.reddit.com/r/Parenting/comments/b403o6/how_do_you_feel_about_toddler_boys_playing_with/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Parenting/comments/b403o6/how_do_yo... "Now, my husband generally doesn't mind that my step-son plays Barbies or dollies with his sister. However, he draws the line at actually buying "girl" toys for him." https://www.reddit.com/r/Parenting/comments/53p1ut/boys_and_dollshelp_me_approach_my_hubby/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Parenting/comments/53p1ut/boys_and_... "I'm constantly reminded my girl isn't very "girly". At times I'm even asked whatever I'm concerned about her enjoy so many "boy's things"" https://www.reddit.com/r/Parenting/comments/2ke89r/parents_with_girls_ever_getting_told_your_girl_is/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Parenting/comments/2ke89r/parents_w...
RaceWon 7y ago
>Sure, maybe only 5% of girls are ever going to want to race cars, but the idea is to make room those 5%, I love gals who race. I once had a female instuctor who was wickedly accurate in forumla ford; Molly could consistently put half the tire off the pavement without dropping it into the dirt, no mean feat that. Females are perhaps better suited to some forms of Motor sport than men are--they can be truly topline drag racers. I don't necessarily agree with conscious effort sentiment however. Race drivers do Not discriminate against females on the track--we Hate every other competitor equally...it does not matter your race, creed nor gender.

by aklemm 7y ago

isolli 7y ago

Agreed. You could make a similar point about race when it comes to sport abilities. It would be horrific to offer sports activities to children based on race, even though, in effect, some children will have a much smaller chance of becoming professionals at some sports than others. But let's never discourage a kid who wants to try whatever he or she likes!

pbhjpbhj 7y ago
>some children will have a much smaller chance of becoming professionals // But not directly because of their race (except as much as racism applies).

atom-morgan 7y ago

> The point of modern gender freedom is not to deny there is a strong nature influence, Are you sure about that?

aklemm 7y ago
I hope so, but I'm more sure that claiming progressives are trying to deny nature altogether is a useful straw-man for detractors with evidence only from the fringes. But how could you and I be more sure of what's really going on?
- LanceH 7y ago
  Perhaps the progressive movement should dig a little deeper for "proof" that a mere difference in rates of participation. The mere fact more men do something seems to constitute both proof that there is systematic sexism and that those males who are over represented are sexist. It gets tiring.
  - rtkwe 7y ago
    The problem is it's basically impossible to raise a kid free from acculturation about gender norms to get the best data on nature vs nurture, even if the home environment is set up to be neutral about gender roles they're going to interact with the outside world which still has a lot of gender bias in job roles. My stance is if there is a natural preference it's probably slight and even if it isn't we should build a system that silos people into jobs because most people like them may prefer to do a particular thing.
    - LanceH 7y ago
      It's not just about denying nature, but denying all the choices along the way by so many parties. You see something like, Company XYZ hires 2/3's men for something. They are called sexist, the people working there are sexist, it is a hostile work environment, etc... and it's the 2/3's number that is offered as "proof". Further, just proposing that nature is the cause can get a person fired. My stance is that lack of proof is being met with lack of proof by a group that is tired of being the target of constant accusations.
  - mhuffman 7y ago
    > Perhaps the progressive movement should dig a little deeper for "proof" that a mere difference in rates of participation. This is the basis of "critical X theory", the new non-scientific, default theory for all of society's woes! So if there are any differences between two groups of people, it is assumed from the outset that there is a systematic (evil!) force causing that difference, typically to the detriment of a (perceived, in the case of women) minority group! So, for example, if there are more men in high-paying jobs, regardless of what the job is, that is Prima facie evidence of current systematic sexism against women to keep them out. Same with the fact that there are higher rates of Black people in prison, or lower standardized test scores for Black children are, in themselves, proof that there is current systematic racial bias against them by White people. This has resulted in incredible "solutions" from adherents to this type of theory to this, such as The Progressive Stack, in classrooms[2] It is noteworthy, that this does not go the other way around! So, for example, the fact that such a small rate of East Asians are in prison, or higher rates of high salaries, or higher standardized test scores, are not evidence of pro-East-Asian bias, it is simply accepted as a combination of nature and nurture that works out for them! However, the fact that a small percentage of East Asians are represented in film and TV, is taken as evidence of coordinated, systemic bias to keep them out. [1] https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/critical-theory/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/critical-theory/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_stack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_stack

ramblerman 7y ago

> it’s to nurture kids to go whichever directions they like Surely you mean to let them go whichever “directions” they like. But I’m not sure that phrasing was accidental.

aklemm 7y ago
What?

Rerarom 7y ago

> maybe only 5% of girls are ever going to want to race cars, but the idea is to make room those 5% This is something that should be said more frequently, maybe packaged up in a catchy slogan, as it would enjoy nearly universal agreement. Whoever does that will end the culture war.

pbhjpbhj 7y ago

That's the correct way to see things but it's contrary to public policies that say things like "there are less girls doing physics, so we're going to make quotas to get more girls doing physics". That's not supporting individual propensities at all. Overwhelmingly the feminist position that's pushed to the fore is "any lack of equal representation of females in a roles that're desirable is down to patriarchal actions and unrelated to any natural differences between the sexes; which differences are an illusion".

smush 7y ago
Wow, parent comment and this one summing up what often turn into X000 comment flame wars that dang has to bag up and send out to the flag truck, now that is a feat of summarization. > Overwhelmingly the feminist position that's pushed to the fore is "any lack of equal representation of females in a roles that're desirable is down to patriarchal actions and unrelated to any natural differences between the sexes; which differences are an illusion". How do we as a society address this point? Whether one argues that the above statement has merit (me) or not, many people on both sides (and probably me in many cases) have such emotional investment in their points that attempting to soberly look at where society is and where society should be on the spectrum between 'the above statement is categorically true globally in 100% of cases' and 'the above statement is categorically false globally in 100% of cases' can feel to me like trying to do laproscopic open-heart brain surgery.
- dhshahsndeisjwn 7y ago
  I'd have more sympathy for critiques of feminism (and similar policies designed to help minorities) if even basic indices of equality like pay for equal work were fixed, and there wasn't clear evidence of discrimination on grounds of gender in interviewing, police treatment etc.
  - smush 7y ago
    In your opinion, is that viewpoint shared by a plurality or majority of what we can loosely define as the feminist crowd and adherents? Admittedly, I don't have a big world-shattering new point to add or logical argument to segue to based on the results of the question, I'm just curious.

Pigo 7y ago

Anybody that is not making room for girls to play with race cars, if they want, was is a jerk in the past, present, and future. Unless they are Betty Draper, I can't imagine a parent that would take a toy away from their kid.

dhshahsndeisjwn 7y ago
Except that many girls are made to feel abnormal for expressing an interest in stereotypically male activities (as are boys in reverse). The key is to acknowledge first that our society is incredibly gendered (and racist) in ways we often oblivious to.
- Pigo 7y ago
  I've never studied parenting across the country, and I acknowledge that there are definitely cultures around the world where women are treated like property, but I've never witnessed a parent enforcing some gender stereotype for toys. It's hard to imagine a parent even caring what toy a kid is playing with, unless they are hurting someone.
  - circlefavshape 7y ago
    It's much more subtle than that. A child isn't raised by his/her parents alone. If you have daughters, your family and friends (and their friends) will by default mostly buy them stereotypical girls toys
  - brazzy 7y ago
    Then your experience and your imagination are rather limited. Just a few quotes from /r/Parenting: "BUT his dad had a conniption when he found out that I bought him a baby doll and he thinks that he should not play with “girl” toys." https://www.reddit.com/r/Parenting/comments/b403o6/how_do_you_feel_about_toddler_boys_playing_with/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Parenting/comments/b403o6/how_do_yo... "A lot of adults (men, women, young, old) make snarky comments in my son's presence about his toy selections (doll houses, play kitchen sets)." https://www.reddit.com/r/Parenting/comments/b403o6/how_do_you_feel_about_toddler_boys_playing_with/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Parenting/comments/b403o6/how_do_yo... "Now, my husband generally doesn't mind that my step-son plays Barbies or dollies with his sister. However, he draws the line at actually buying "girl" toys for him." https://www.reddit.com/r/Parenting/comments/53p1ut/boys_and_dollshelp_me_approach_my_hubby/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Parenting/comments/53p1ut/boys_and_... "I'm constantly reminded my girl isn't very "girly". At times I'm even asked whatever I'm concerned about her enjoy so many "boy's things"" https://www.reddit.com/r/Parenting/comments/2ke89r/parents_with_girls_ever_getting_told_your_girl_is/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Parenting/comments/2ke89r/parents_w...

RaceWon 7y ago

>Sure, maybe only 5% of girls are ever going to want to race cars, but the idea is to make room those 5%, I love gals who race. I once had a female instuctor who was wickedly accurate in forumla ford; Molly could consistently put half the tire off the pavement without dropping it into the dirt, no mean feat that. Females are perhaps better suited to some forms of Motor sport than men are--they can be truly topline drag racers. I don't necessarily agree with conscious effort sentiment however. Race drivers do Not discriminate against females on the track--we Hate every other competitor equally...it does not matter your race, creed nor gender.