8 ms·

I'm one of those users holding on to Windows 7 as long as possible, and I'm really glad that people are also interested and motivated to keep it running for as

I'm one of those users holding on to Windows 7 as long as possible, and I'm really glad that people are also interested and motivated to keep it running for as long as possible. But I recently got a new laptop, a Ryzen 3550H with the Vega 8 iGPU, and then had to discover, that a) there aren't any drivers for Vega 8 for Windows 7 and b) my laptop's firmware doesn't provide any legacy BIOS emulation required to get Windows 7 running (explicitly: INT10H and VBIOS are required by the fallback Windows 7 graphics driver (VGA.sys), which also runs during setup and PE [0]). I'm glad I recently still got Windows 7 onto desktop, 2nd-gen Ryzen platforms, but I fear that that was one of the last modern PC platforms to be able to run Windows 7. My new laptop now has Windows 10, because I'm currently developing some windows applications, but once I'm done with that, it's over to Linux. This was my first own PC with Windows 10, and I thought I might have a change of heart, but it's truly quite terrible. Subjectively, it doesn't feel like a PC with an OS anymore, more like an advanced XBOX with mouse and keyboard. [0]: http://reboot.pro/topic/21108-install-windows-7-at-uefi-graphics-output-protocol-gop-hardware/ http://reboot.pro/topic/21108-install-windows-7-at-uefi-grap... EDIT: ...but if anyone finds out how to get Windows 7's VGA.sys working with GOP or knows a 3rd party alternative to it, I'm all ears!

aldoushuxley001 7y ago
Switch over to Linux Mint, it’s the spiritual successor to Windows 7 (same look and feel), but it’s also Linux which is phenomenal. Windows 7 used to be all I used, because all the latest windows versions take away too much control of my computer from me (eg Windows 10 requiring updates to be installed middle of workday at most inconvenient times.)
- zozbot234 7y ago
  You could run almost any desktop environment and give it that kind of look and feel. No need to limit oneself to Cinnamon or Linux Mint.
- oauea 7y ago
  > Windows 10 requiring updates to be installed middle of workday at most inconvenient times That just means you haven't told Windows your working hours, or you never shut down. This has literally never happened to me. It will only start to force you if you've ignored security updates for 2 days or so, which as an IT professional you should appreciate.
  - aldoushuxley001 7y ago
    It's true I never told Windows my working hours, but I would shut down mostly nightly and it'd still happen. I just find it to be incredibly user-hostile to force updates in the middle of a session, starts to feel a bit more like Microsoft's computer than mine at a certain point.
    - Arainach 7y ago
      If you turn off your machine and never give it a time to install updates except during the day, that's inevitable. Security updates are more important than user convenience for the same reason that vaccines are more important than people's opinions.
      - cortic 7y ago
        I wonder when consent stopped being important? And how that was accomplished. I know the mentality from authority has always been; WE the government can stick anything into your body, cause we know best. And WE the multinational corporation can stick anything into your devices, cause we know best. But we the consumer seem to have just given up. If i wasn't averse to tinfoil hats I'd say it was something in the water.
      - mr_woozy 7y ago
        what an asinine perspective. If you remove the users autonomy from how / when that security gets applied you've now made the security situation quantifiably worse, for 2 reasons, one users will now jump through hoops to confound your mandatory process, two you're impinging on possible mission critical infrastructure which blanket policies decided arbitrarily by a software conglomerate.
- mister_hn 7y ago
  You might want to check also Manjaro Linux, which is featured as one of the best Linux distributions (as for distrowatch.com) and it delivers always updated packages, since it's based on Arch.
  - turndown 7y ago
    Is this actually suggested for first timers? I use Manjaro, but would not classify it as beginner friendly.
    - zozbot234 7y ago
      I wouldn't even classify Arch or its derivatives as something appropriate for real production use. OTOH, if you're dealing with cutting-edge hardware as OP is, installing an Arch derivative may be the easiest way of getting it to work, at least until the support makes its way to e.g. Debian's "testing" channel, and then its stable release.
      - mister_hn 7y ago
        well, if you call a MacMini 2008 "cutting edge hardware"...For Apple it was dead back to MacOS 10.7, but it works awesomely with Manjaro Linux 32 bit I've been using Manjaro Linux since 2013 for personal and production usage, on new or old hardware. It simply flies.. The Xfce variant needs only 300MB of RAM, while Gnome and KDE are hungrier. I've had multiple problems with Mint/Ubuntu/Debian, especially with nvidia drivers and kernel updates, lately also with kernel 5.3.0
    - mister_hn 7y ago
      Yes, Manjaro is first timers user-friendly, since you can manage everything graphically and kernel updates have never been so easy to update (along with drivers). There are also LTS Kernels, plus a huge selection of software. Definitively an alternative to Ubuntu/Mint, check distrowatch.com
  - aldoushuxley001 7y ago
    Majaro actually looks beautiful, I'll definitely check into it, thanks for the heads up! Some part of me is tempted to make the jump to qubes too
beamatronic 7y ago
How about the enterprise version of windows. I feel like there are restrictions they would put on consumers, that they would not put on an enterprise. Even if it costs more, it might make you happier, if you get a better experience.
wolf550e 7y ago
Chrome security and Google project zero wrote that windows 7 is insecure, will never get the security fixes in Windows 10 and you shouldn't use it.
- robocat 7y ago
  Google stopped allowing their staff using Windows a decade ago (with very limited exceptions). I presume Google have not relaxed that rule for Windows 10.
  - wolf550e 7y ago
    But you don't want to run the special corp Google distro with hardening and spying / remote control as your personal computer. I wrote about their recommendation for regular users, which is to prefer win10 over win7.
    - robocat 7y ago
      I wish there were a Google distro I could use - I trust Google to properly vet all dependencies. I worry that other distros have trojans via app dependencies. I have been thinking about using OpenBSD - but I am guessing that a secure OS is no help when you need to use insecure apps.
  - s3graham 7y ago
    That is false.
  - eitland 7y ago
    I talked in person to some technical Googlers at an event a few weeks ago. I asked them about this particular rule and they said they were allowed to use Windows but certain other engineers were not allowed to. I came from the same understanding as you but my new understanding was that except for certain departments they are allowed to use Windows.
_bxg1 7y ago
I love 10 (as far as Windows goes). 8 was a flop, but in my opinion 10 is a slam-dunk. It is to 7 what 7 was to XP. Other than the annoying thing where your profile has to be tied to an online account, I don't understand why anyone is still holding out.
- mr_woozy 7y ago
  Because it's horrible in a myriad of ways too numerous to list.
  - mr_woozy 7y ago
    UPDATE looks like everyone above me actually listed em all.
- klingonopera 7y ago
  I read about the tying to an online account, and also read that keeping the PC offline while installing is a useful remedy. Which I did, so at least my Windows 10 installation is a "local" installation. But when you stop to think about it: Are we living in a sane world, when I have to "fool" my PC/OS in order to get it to act in a certain kind of way? That, in a nutshell, is my biggest gripe with Windows 10. I have no problems with the defaults being made to accustom the computer illiterate, but you should allow power users to do whatever they want to a their PCs, and this is what MS doesn't allow (anymore, or at least, not in ways that they previously allowed). Since you asked, the following may be a bit non-conformant to HN standards, so I'll set it in quotes, it's my post/rant on FB venting my initial frustrations with Windows 10: ""Why does less information fit on my laptop despite it having the same resolution as my desktop? OMFG, who the fuck resetted my display scaling?" "Oh, defaulting to 'public network' is nice. Finally, some common sense. Let's check out the firewall... every Microsoft app has an exception ...well, I'll retract that again. Also, every app I installed now has an exception on public and not on private, so I have to not only add the exception on private, but remove it on public too. At least Windows 7 asked me each time, so this shit wouldn't happen. Wooo! More grinding. Thanks, Bill!" "Can I add shortcuts to the start menu? NOPE! THIS IS NOW OUR ADVERTISING SPACE!" "My computer on the desktop, I need that. Where is that option? Looks, looks, looks and gives up Fine then, I'll just create a shortcut if there's no 'real' 'My Computer' for the desktop. It kinda works (but no 'Manage' option on right-click, since it's a user shortcut, not a system one). But it feels like a step back. Why did MS remove 'My Computer'? Oh, because USE THE FUCKING CLOUD YOU MORON! MANAGING YOUR OWN DATA IS SO 1998! WHY WOULD YOU NEED ANYTHING OTHER THAN ONEDRIVE (which is preinstalled, but fortunately still, uninstallable)?" If Windows 10 would behave like Windows 7 with the extra features (newer UI, UEFI, that stuff), I would've welcomed it, hell, with the company I wouldn't even bat an eye to pay for retail copies. But no, they didn't decide to do a new Windows, they decided to turn your PC into an advanced XBOX. Fuck you! Stop being so DISRUPTIVE TECHONOLOGY and just create good operating systems, FFS. But it's too late now. And so it goes."
kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
Just run Win7 in a VM on Linux. That lets me run my legacy apps with no native replacement.
Wowfunhappy 7y ago
...has no one made an EFI bootloader that will start BIOS operating systems? Hackintosh users have been doing the reverse for ages, because Macs have used a variation of EFI since they first switched to Intel, long before EFI existed on PC.
- LIV2 7y ago
  Before Bootcamp was a thing the community developed XOM to boot XP on Intel macs (which at the time lacked the legacy bios in it's ROM) so it should be possible I'm not having much luck finding very much information on it though
  - klingonopera 7y ago
    The page is still there on SourceForge, but no download. I found the Clover EFI bootloader by chance there, too, but it appears to load a UEFI environment from a legacy BIOS environment. For the purposes of running Windows 7 on modern systems, we'd have to do the reverse, emulate a legacy BIOS environment from a UEFI system. XOM appears to fit this description, it simulates a legacy IBM BIOS on an Mac's EFI boot environment. I only briefly Googled it earlier, but thanks for the ideas, rest assured, if I ever look into it and get Windows 7 running, I'll post about it.
    - AstralStorm 7y ago
      You could use your virtualization technology to run it, execute reference SeaBIOS using that. Qemu, Xen and VMware apply. Of course this won't fix your driver problems, if any. Alternatively load and execute a CSM in your UEFI firmware, but we do not have a reference implementation of that and AMI, Phoenix do not want to share.
- klingonopera 7y ago
  ...like the Clover EFI bootloader? Does this work? I boot into Clover's UEFI "shell" (?), which then emulates a legacy BIOS and then boots me into Windows 7? Is this plausible? Has someone tried this out? I'd still have the problems of no drivers, but it's a step closer...
t-writescode 7y ago
For some of your complaints, a pihole and then some additional Windows-specific blacklist entries may help.

aldoushuxley001 7y ago

Switch over to Linux Mint, it’s the spiritual successor to Windows 7 (same look and feel), but it’s also Linux which is phenomenal. Windows 7 used to be all I used, because all the latest windows versions take away too much control of my computer from me (eg Windows 10 requiring updates to be installed middle of workday at most inconvenient times.)

zozbot234 7y ago
You could run almost any desktop environment and give it that kind of look and feel. No need to limit oneself to Cinnamon or Linux Mint.
oauea 7y ago
> Windows 10 requiring updates to be installed middle of workday at most inconvenient times That just means you haven't told Windows your working hours, or you never shut down. This has literally never happened to me. It will only start to force you if you've ignored security updates for 2 days or so, which as an IT professional you should appreciate.
- aldoushuxley001 7y ago
  It's true I never told Windows my working hours, but I would shut down mostly nightly and it'd still happen. I just find it to be incredibly user-hostile to force updates in the middle of a session, starts to feel a bit more like Microsoft's computer than mine at a certain point.
  - Arainach 7y ago
    If you turn off your machine and never give it a time to install updates except during the day, that's inevitable. Security updates are more important than user convenience for the same reason that vaccines are more important than people's opinions.
    - cortic 7y ago
      I wonder when consent stopped being important? And how that was accomplished. I know the mentality from authority has always been; WE the government can stick anything into your body, cause we know best. And WE the multinational corporation can stick anything into your devices, cause we know best. But we the consumer seem to have just given up. If i wasn't averse to tinfoil hats I'd say it was something in the water.
    - mr_woozy 7y ago
      what an asinine perspective. If you remove the users autonomy from how / when that security gets applied you've now made the security situation quantifiably worse, for 2 reasons, one users will now jump through hoops to confound your mandatory process, two you're impinging on possible mission critical infrastructure which blanket policies decided arbitrarily by a software conglomerate.
mister_hn 7y ago
You might want to check also Manjaro Linux, which is featured as one of the best Linux distributions (as for distrowatch.com) and it delivers always updated packages, since it's based on Arch.
- turndown 7y ago
  Is this actually suggested for first timers? I use Manjaro, but would not classify it as beginner friendly.
  - zozbot234 7y ago
    I wouldn't even classify Arch or its derivatives as something appropriate for real production use. OTOH, if you're dealing with cutting-edge hardware as OP is, installing an Arch derivative may be the easiest way of getting it to work, at least until the support makes its way to e.g. Debian's "testing" channel, and then its stable release.
    - mister_hn 7y ago
      well, if you call a MacMini 2008 "cutting edge hardware"...For Apple it was dead back to MacOS 10.7, but it works awesomely with Manjaro Linux 32 bit I've been using Manjaro Linux since 2013 for personal and production usage, on new or old hardware. It simply flies.. The Xfce variant needs only 300MB of RAM, while Gnome and KDE are hungrier. I've had multiple problems with Mint/Ubuntu/Debian, especially with nvidia drivers and kernel updates, lately also with kernel 5.3.0
  - mister_hn 7y ago
    Yes, Manjaro is first timers user-friendly, since you can manage everything graphically and kernel updates have never been so easy to update (along with drivers). There are also LTS Kernels, plus a huge selection of software. Definitively an alternative to Ubuntu/Mint, check distrowatch.com
- aldoushuxley001 7y ago
  Majaro actually looks beautiful, I'll definitely check into it, thanks for the heads up! Some part of me is tempted to make the jump to qubes too

beamatronic 7y ago

How about the enterprise version of windows. I feel like there are restrictions they would put on consumers, that they would not put on an enterprise. Even if it costs more, it might make you happier, if you get a better experience.

wolf550e 7y ago

Chrome security and Google project zero wrote that windows 7 is insecure, will never get the security fixes in Windows 10 and you shouldn't use it.

robocat 7y ago
Google stopped allowing their staff using Windows a decade ago (with very limited exceptions). I presume Google have not relaxed that rule for Windows 10.
- wolf550e 7y ago
  But you don't want to run the special corp Google distro with hardening and spying / remote control as your personal computer. I wrote about their recommendation for regular users, which is to prefer win10 over win7.
  - robocat 7y ago
    I wish there were a Google distro I could use - I trust Google to properly vet all dependencies. I worry that other distros have trojans via app dependencies. I have been thinking about using OpenBSD - but I am guessing that a secure OS is no help when you need to use insecure apps.
- s3graham 7y ago
  That is false.
- eitland 7y ago
  I talked in person to some technical Googlers at an event a few weeks ago. I asked them about this particular rule and they said they were allowed to use Windows but certain other engineers were not allowed to. I came from the same understanding as you but my new understanding was that except for certain departments they are allowed to use Windows.

_bxg1 7y ago

I love 10 (as far as Windows goes). 8 was a flop, but in my opinion 10 is a slam-dunk. It is to 7 what 7 was to XP. Other than the annoying thing where your profile has to be tied to an online account, I don't understand why anyone is still holding out.

mr_woozy 7y ago
Because it's horrible in a myriad of ways too numerous to list.
- mr_woozy 7y ago
  UPDATE looks like everyone above me actually listed em all.
klingonopera 7y ago
I read about the tying to an online account, and also read that keeping the PC offline while installing is a useful remedy. Which I did, so at least my Windows 10 installation is a "local" installation. But when you stop to think about it: Are we living in a sane world, when I have to "fool" my PC/OS in order to get it to act in a certain kind of way? That, in a nutshell, is my biggest gripe with Windows 10. I have no problems with the defaults being made to accustom the computer illiterate, but you should allow power users to do whatever they want to a their PCs, and this is what MS doesn't allow (anymore, or at least, not in ways that they previously allowed). Since you asked, the following may be a bit non-conformant to HN standards, so I'll set it in quotes, it's my post/rant on FB venting my initial frustrations with Windows 10: ""Why does less information fit on my laptop despite it having the same resolution as my desktop? OMFG, who the fuck resetted my display scaling?" "Oh, defaulting to 'public network' is nice. Finally, some common sense. Let's check out the firewall... every Microsoft app has an exception ...well, I'll retract that again. Also, every app I installed now has an exception on public and not on private, so I have to not only add the exception on private, but remove it on public too. At least Windows 7 asked me each time, so this shit wouldn't happen. Wooo! More grinding. Thanks, Bill!" "Can I add shortcuts to the start menu? NOPE! THIS IS NOW OUR ADVERTISING SPACE!" "My computer on the desktop, I need that. Where is that option? Looks, looks, looks and gives up Fine then, I'll just create a shortcut if there's no 'real' 'My Computer' for the desktop. It kinda works (but no 'Manage' option on right-click, since it's a user shortcut, not a system one). But it feels like a step back. Why did MS remove 'My Computer'? Oh, because USE THE FUCKING CLOUD YOU MORON! MANAGING YOUR OWN DATA IS SO 1998! WHY WOULD YOU NEED ANYTHING OTHER THAN ONEDRIVE (which is preinstalled, but fortunately still, uninstallable)?" If Windows 10 would behave like Windows 7 with the extra features (newer UI, UEFI, that stuff), I would've welcomed it, hell, with the company I wouldn't even bat an eye to pay for retail copies. But no, they didn't decide to do a new Windows, they decided to turn your PC into an advanced XBOX. Fuck you! Stop being so DISRUPTIVE TECHONOLOGY and just create good operating systems, FFS. But it's too late now. And so it goes."

kevin_thibedeau 7y ago

Just run Win7 in a VM on Linux. That lets me run my legacy apps with no native replacement.

Wowfunhappy 7y ago

...has no one made an EFI bootloader that will start BIOS operating systems? Hackintosh users have been doing the reverse for ages, because Macs have used a variation of EFI since they first switched to Intel, long before EFI existed on PC.

LIV2 7y ago
Before Bootcamp was a thing the community developed XOM to boot XP on Intel macs (which at the time lacked the legacy bios in it's ROM) so it should be possible I'm not having much luck finding very much information on it though
- klingonopera 7y ago
  The page is still there on SourceForge, but no download. I found the Clover EFI bootloader by chance there, too, but it appears to load a UEFI environment from a legacy BIOS environment. For the purposes of running Windows 7 on modern systems, we'd have to do the reverse, emulate a legacy BIOS environment from a UEFI system. XOM appears to fit this description, it simulates a legacy IBM BIOS on an Mac's EFI boot environment. I only briefly Googled it earlier, but thanks for the ideas, rest assured, if I ever look into it and get Windows 7 running, I'll post about it.
  - AstralStorm 7y ago
    You could use your virtualization technology to run it, execute reference SeaBIOS using that. Qemu, Xen and VMware apply. Of course this won't fix your driver problems, if any. Alternatively load and execute a CSM in your UEFI firmware, but we do not have a reference implementation of that and AMI, Phoenix do not want to share.
klingonopera 7y ago
...like the Clover EFI bootloader? Does this work? I boot into Clover's UEFI "shell" (?), which then emulates a legacy BIOS and then boots me into Windows 7? Is this plausible? Has someone tried this out? I'd still have the problems of no drivers, but it's a step closer...

t-writescode 7y ago

For some of your complaints, a pihole and then some additional Windows-specific blacklist entries may help.