7 ms·

When I was younger I dreamed up an idea of a shock suit, basically it would have been a set of long underwear top and bottom with electrodes that would act like

When I was younger I dreamed up an idea of a shock suit, basically it would have been a set of long underwear top and bottom with electrodes that would act like a TENS machine to gently(or not so gently) nudge the wearers into performing a repetitive task with machine accuracy. I figured this would be great for an assembly line and could provide a cheaper alternative to a very costly robot while still providing employment. I never pursued the idea after telling my Dad about it who told me it was an immoral idea. Personally I would still be willing to wear a suit like that if the pay was good enough. Put on the suit, turn off my mind and put in a days work.

TomMarius 7y ago
I wonder why is it immoral. I understand that mind control would be, but voluntary external muscle control?
- yjftsjthsd-h 7y ago
  It still breaks individual autonomy, probably.
- mmierz 7y ago
  It’s not external muscle control, that’s not what a TENS unit does. OP is describing using painful electric shocks to punish a worker for mistakes or for going off-task, i.e. brutalize workers into performing with machine like efficiency.
  - MPetitt 7y ago
    I think he was proposing using the TENS for muscle control similarly to https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5QYpD428hAQ https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5QYpD428hAQ
    - jotm 7y ago
      Oh, OK. I also thought it was electroshock motivation. You still can't just "turn off" your mind, most likely. You'll just be trapped there thinking
      - nitrogen 7y ago
        I have actually met people who vehemently insist that when they "space out" they aren't deep in thought, they are literally off -- not thinking at all. It's pretty astonishing how much variation there is in people's inner minds. Some can imagine spatial relationships in great detail. Some can't even imagine a simple stick figure, but can instead remember long lists of information.
- rapind 7y ago
  Interesting comment. It's so obviously immoral to me, that seeing someone question it has me considering how morals are instilled in other cultures / generations. I don't mean to frame this from a moral high ground either. Just mildly curious.
- dragonwriter 7y ago
  TENS isn't muscle control and what is described doesn't seem to be voluntary but imposed (and economically coerced) use of physical pain as a means of correcting workplace errors.
bransonf 7y ago
There is a sci-fi story somewhere that talks about this premise. It’s a machine that just gives constant orders to the employees of an establishment. Like “grab the mop”, “go to the bathroom”, “mop from left to right” (you get the idea) The story makes the cases that the employees are actually satisfied because they don’t have to do any thinking for themselves. They just follow these methodical simple and timed tasks. It’s a really interesting premise I think.
- js8 7y ago
  You probably mean https://marshallbrain.com/manna.htm https://marshallbrain.com/manna.htm
  - bransonf 7y ago
    Thank you, this is exactly what I was thinking of
  - yowlingcat 7y ago
    I remember reading this once upon a time, but what a pleasant and hilarious rabbit hole to see again. Thank you for putting this in my feed!
- taormina 7y ago
  I also love that the actual premise here was automating away MANAGEMENT.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
vsareto 7y ago
I bet you could take the capital/development/money from developing that suit and instead put it towards reducing the cost of the robot it's designed to compete with.
- sigmaprimus 7y ago
  There would be several advantages to a suit over a robot over and above cost. Ability to do an unlimited number a tasks without major retooling would be one. Minimal maintenence and upkeep would be another. Thinking abit more about it, there would be more uses other than just automating labour. I could see a suit being very usefull in a training situation such as learning to dance using the suit then when muscle memory kicks in the suit can be taken off. (This is simmilar to the utube video link posted in the comments) How about for snipers? With the suit on a sniper could hold steady on a target. Then theres the whole tele-presence surgery idea. IMHO the most important thing is it creates a symbiotic relationship with humans and automation rather than getting rid of the human. All that said I kniw a suit is a pipe dream but maybe a long sleeve glove that allows you to pick up a pen and draw a computer generated picture might not be that far out.
  - lozf 7y ago
    I can hear the ads now: 'Wear the suit in your Leisure time, and subscribe to our "Master of X" range of Suit-Apps including "Tennis Pro", "Concert Pianist", "Tri-Athlete", "Chef", and many more!'
black_puppydog 7y ago
> Personally I would still be willing to wear a suit like that if the pay was good enough. That seems like an unlikely premise, and thus a meaningless statement. It's not physical coercion like you imagined, but take a look at how amazon logistics workers get managed by their wearables. Then look at how they describe the job. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say this would always be used on people who can't fight back, because they're in some sort of disadvantage (usually economic) and so they would never be paid well enough.
- sigmaprimus 7y ago
  My thought was more along the lines of a welder or pottery wheel operator where precise and steady movements are required. I would agree that is the immorality of such a device as it is quite easy to turn it into an electronic whip of sorts.
bendbro 7y ago
This is one of the most amusing Hackernews comments I've read. Do you by chance play something like Arma, DCS, or Farming Simulator?
- gherkinnn 7y ago
  Arma? You mean spending weeks learning the controls, then slowly walking towards your objective for hours, only to be sniped from across the map? What’s not to like? Oh, how I miss the ArmA ACE mod days.
jotm 7y ago
Heh, I've been thinking that would be great for distractions. Have to work but are on Reddit? Shock! Alternatives: automated time waster blocking (on the router probably), self-blackmail (nudes go out automatically, or your important stuff is deleted).
pfarrell 7y ago
We are tool makers, not robots. Machine level precision is why we design and build machines. Art isn’t a product to be created for museums; it’s a process, a meditation, a discovery, communication. You’ll note that that the rise of abstract expression in painting correlates with the refinement of photography. We no longer needed humans to create realistic depictions, so we explored deeper into the purpose of those depictions. I don’t know what life is, but I’d consider it a waste to try to turn all of us into machines. Remember John Henry, the steel drivin’ man? Also, the potential for evil is too great in such a device. That’s why your father told you it’s an immoral plan.
WrtCdEvrydy 7y ago
Continuum had something like this. If you owed too much, they would implant the ship right into your spine and it would take full control of your body until your death (since it was impossible for you to pay off the amount).
- sigmaprimus 7y ago
  I believe ready player one also had something along those lines, although in that story they enslaved your mind to play games but they same idea of creating an indentured servant through predatory lending.
jmull 7y ago
Your dad is right, but setting morality aside for a moment... Why would it be easier or more efficient to program a suit to direct a human to perform a specific operation than program a robot to perform the same operation? How would it be cheaper or more efficient to maintain a human than a robot?
- sigmaprimus 7y ago
  >>>Why would it be easier or more efficient to program a suit to direct a human to perform a specific operation than program a robot to perform the same operation? Just off the top of my head I would say the amount of power needed to drive a humans muscles would be exponentially less. You also may not need to program things like balance, walking, object avoidance or abort sequences if coding for a symbiotic human machine as these would be instinctual on the human side. >>>How would it be cheaper or more efficient to maintain a human than a robot? This is bit trickier, but I would say the big one is the fact that humans have a built in regenerative system. Also a human can tell you what hurts, this would require less diagnostics maybe? This is all speculative anyways, but it would be nice to control even one of my arms via cnc, I could do calligraphy like a pro, paint like a master, even play the piano like a prodigy just by downloading a bit of code. I don't see any issues with morality if someone programs their own body to preform those tasks.
- mattkrause 7y ago
  It would make sense if the user could trigger different "motor programs" on demand. Machines (and the shock suit, presumably) are very good at executing movements precisely and repeatably, but they're not great at determining what to execute. Surgical robots work somewhat like this: the user plans each action (cut here, cauterize there) and then robot executes it.
deepnet 7y ago
Discrete versions of this are already being tested for use enhancing micro in competitive e-sports Also see Stelarc's Movatar[0] for an working human-installed, early-web version, providing a VRML to Human web interface. [0] - http://stelarc.org/?catID=20225 http://stelarc.org/?catID=20225
benhurmarcel 7y ago
Have you ever had a blue collar job?
analog31 7y ago
Obligatory Monty Python: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLMFSNIurqs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLMFSNIurqs

TomMarius 7y ago

I wonder why is it immoral. I understand that mind control would be, but voluntary external muscle control?

yjftsjthsd-h 7y ago
It still breaks individual autonomy, probably.
mmierz 7y ago
It’s not external muscle control, that’s not what a TENS unit does. OP is describing using painful electric shocks to punish a worker for mistakes or for going off-task, i.e. brutalize workers into performing with machine like efficiency.
- MPetitt 7y ago
  I think he was proposing using the TENS for muscle control similarly to https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5QYpD428hAQ https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5QYpD428hAQ
  - jotm 7y ago
    Oh, OK. I also thought it was electroshock motivation. You still can't just "turn off" your mind, most likely. You'll just be trapped there thinking
    - nitrogen 7y ago
      I have actually met people who vehemently insist that when they "space out" they aren't deep in thought, they are literally off -- not thinking at all. It's pretty astonishing how much variation there is in people's inner minds. Some can imagine spatial relationships in great detail. Some can't even imagine a simple stick figure, but can instead remember long lists of information.
rapind 7y ago
Interesting comment. It's so obviously immoral to me, that seeing someone question it has me considering how morals are instilled in other cultures / generations. I don't mean to frame this from a moral high ground either. Just mildly curious.
dragonwriter 7y ago
TENS isn't muscle control and what is described doesn't seem to be voluntary but imposed (and economically coerced) use of physical pain as a means of correcting workplace errors.

bransonf 7y ago

There is a sci-fi story somewhere that talks about this premise. It’s a machine that just gives constant orders to the employees of an establishment. Like “grab the mop”, “go to the bathroom”, “mop from left to right” (you get the idea) The story makes the cases that the employees are actually satisfied because they don’t have to do any thinking for themselves. They just follow these methodical simple and timed tasks. It’s a really interesting premise I think.

js8 7y ago
You probably mean https://marshallbrain.com/manna.htm https://marshallbrain.com/manna.htm
- bransonf 7y ago
  Thank you, this is exactly what I was thinking of
- yowlingcat 7y ago
  I remember reading this once upon a time, but what a pleasant and hilarious rabbit hole to see again. Thank you for putting this in my feed!
taormina 7y ago
I also love that the actual premise here was automating away MANAGEMENT.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

vsareto 7y ago

I bet you could take the capital/development/money from developing that suit and instead put it towards reducing the cost of the robot it's designed to compete with.

sigmaprimus 7y ago
There would be several advantages to a suit over a robot over and above cost. Ability to do an unlimited number a tasks without major retooling would be one. Minimal maintenence and upkeep would be another. Thinking abit more about it, there would be more uses other than just automating labour. I could see a suit being very usefull in a training situation such as learning to dance using the suit then when muscle memory kicks in the suit can be taken off. (This is simmilar to the utube video link posted in the comments) How about for snipers? With the suit on a sniper could hold steady on a target. Then theres the whole tele-presence surgery idea. IMHO the most important thing is it creates a symbiotic relationship with humans and automation rather than getting rid of the human. All that said I kniw a suit is a pipe dream but maybe a long sleeve glove that allows you to pick up a pen and draw a computer generated picture might not be that far out.
- lozf 7y ago
  I can hear the ads now: 'Wear the suit in your Leisure time, and subscribe to our "Master of X" range of Suit-Apps including "Tennis Pro", "Concert Pianist", "Tri-Athlete", "Chef", and many more!'

black_puppydog 7y ago

> Personally I would still be willing to wear a suit like that if the pay was good enough. That seems like an unlikely premise, and thus a meaningless statement. It's not physical coercion like you imagined, but take a look at how amazon logistics workers get managed by their wearables. Then look at how they describe the job. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say this would always be used on people who can't fight back, because they're in some sort of disadvantage (usually economic) and so they would never be paid well enough.

sigmaprimus 7y ago
My thought was more along the lines of a welder or pottery wheel operator where precise and steady movements are required. I would agree that is the immorality of such a device as it is quite easy to turn it into an electronic whip of sorts.

bendbro 7y ago

This is one of the most amusing Hackernews comments I've read. Do you by chance play something like Arma, DCS, or Farming Simulator?

gherkinnn 7y ago
Arma? You mean spending weeks learning the controls, then slowly walking towards your objective for hours, only to be sniped from across the map? What’s not to like? Oh, how I miss the ArmA ACE mod days.

jotm 7y ago

Heh, I've been thinking that would be great for distractions. Have to work but are on Reddit? Shock! Alternatives: automated time waster blocking (on the router probably), self-blackmail (nudes go out automatically, or your important stuff is deleted).

pfarrell 7y ago

We are tool makers, not robots. Machine level precision is why we design and build machines. Art isn’t a product to be created for museums; it’s a process, a meditation, a discovery, communication. You’ll note that that the rise of abstract expression in painting correlates with the refinement of photography. We no longer needed humans to create realistic depictions, so we explored deeper into the purpose of those depictions. I don’t know what life is, but I’d consider it a waste to try to turn all of us into machines. Remember John Henry, the steel drivin’ man? Also, the potential for evil is too great in such a device. That’s why your father told you it’s an immoral plan.

WrtCdEvrydy 7y ago

Continuum had something like this. If you owed too much, they would implant the ship right into your spine and it would take full control of your body until your death (since it was impossible for you to pay off the amount).

sigmaprimus 7y ago
I believe ready player one also had something along those lines, although in that story they enslaved your mind to play games but they same idea of creating an indentured servant through predatory lending.

jmull 7y ago

Your dad is right, but setting morality aside for a moment... Why would it be easier or more efficient to program a suit to direct a human to perform a specific operation than program a robot to perform the same operation? How would it be cheaper or more efficient to maintain a human than a robot?

sigmaprimus 7y ago
>>>Why would it be easier or more efficient to program a suit to direct a human to perform a specific operation than program a robot to perform the same operation? Just off the top of my head I would say the amount of power needed to drive a humans muscles would be exponentially less. You also may not need to program things like balance, walking, object avoidance or abort sequences if coding for a symbiotic human machine as these would be instinctual on the human side. >>>How would it be cheaper or more efficient to maintain a human than a robot? This is bit trickier, but I would say the big one is the fact that humans have a built in regenerative system. Also a human can tell you what hurts, this would require less diagnostics maybe? This is all speculative anyways, but it would be nice to control even one of my arms via cnc, I could do calligraphy like a pro, paint like a master, even play the piano like a prodigy just by downloading a bit of code. I don't see any issues with morality if someone programs their own body to preform those tasks.
mattkrause 7y ago
It would make sense if the user could trigger different "motor programs" on demand. Machines (and the shock suit, presumably) are very good at executing movements precisely and repeatably, but they're not great at determining what to execute. Surgical robots work somewhat like this: the user plans each action (cut here, cauterize there) and then robot executes it.

deepnet 7y ago

Discrete versions of this are already being tested for use enhancing micro in competitive e-sports Also see Stelarc's Movatar[0] for an working human-installed, early-web version, providing a VRML to Human web interface. [0] - http://stelarc.org/?catID=20225 http://stelarc.org/?catID=20225

benhurmarcel 7y ago

Have you ever had a blue collar job?

analog31 7y ago

Obligatory Monty Python: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLMFSNIurqs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLMFSNIurqs