6 ms·

Joel Spolsky is (semi-)retired

90 points by jonasvp 7y ago

azhenley 7y ago
The article's actual title is: "So, how’s that retirement thing going, anyway?"
- wglb 7y ago
  When you see something like this, mail hn@ycombinator.com and they will fix it.
Clubber 7y ago
For those that don't know, Joel wrote many really good software development related articles/blogs in the early to mid aughts. The archives can be found on his site. I'd recommend anyone read them who works on a software development team in any capacity (management, dev, DBA, QA, etc).
- chrisbennet 7y ago
  My favorite Joel article is: "Whaddaya Mean, You Can’t Find Programmers?" https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/06/15/whaddaya-mean-you-cant-find-programmers/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/06/15/whaddaya-mean-you-... "Now, let’s review some microeconomics. In a free market, it is almost axiomatic that the market always clears. That’s a technical term that means that when somebody tries to sell something, if they are willing to accept the market price, they will be able to sell it, and when somebody wants to buy something, if they are willing to pay the market price, they will be able to buy it. It’s just a matter of both sides accepting the market price."
  - spydum 7y ago
    Totally agree - it still cracks me up in my particular industry. “There’s a shortage of security engineers and architects” is a common trope. No there isn’t- you just aren’t paying more than SWE and other dev salaries. People would consider switching if the money was there.
    - monksy 7y ago
      Money isn't always the reason. In Chicago there are dev companies that are so toxic or imploding that they're well known.
      - marcoperaza 7y ago
        Most people would work in a toxic company for the right price. For an extremely awful job it might be very high, but just about everyone has a number.
        ken 7y ago
        The bad companies, though, don't tend to offer more money than average. IME, they offer less. When a company is deaf to what developers care about in one department, they're usually deaf to what developers want in other departments, too.
    - wglb 7y ago
      I was successful in doing this. But I started out by finding software engineers that were interested in security and were willing to learn and turned them into higher-paid security folks.
      - spydum 7y ago
        absolutely this. most solid security people were devs with an interest who were given the opportunity to flip. the problem is employers want to pay below market prices, for someone who already has all of the skills they want. that just doesn't happen: those people command a lot more money. your approach is MUCH more practical (hire or transfer good interested devs internally, and train them up).
        wglb 7y ago
        The hard part was working with HR to make the new salaries higher. Not a small task.
  - toasterlovin 7y ago
    The fact that different professions earn different amounts of money is, in fact, an indicator that the higher paying professions have a shortage of people able to perform the work. Working conditions and pay for programmers are incredible and would be a life changing improvement for most people. That the profession hasn’t been flooded with talent is a strong indicator that there isn’t enough talent out there.
    - Amezarak 7y ago
      Working conditions and pay are highly variable. Pay outside of a few major metro areas is not that great, and working uncompensated overtime is common in the industry.
      - toasterlovin 7y ago
        Programming jobs are essentially universally better than food service or retail jobs. They're easier, they pay more, they're more prestigious.
    - Znafon 7y ago
      > The fact that different professions earn different amounts of money is, in fact, an indicator that the higher paying professions have a shortage of people able to perform the work. If we have 2000 people, we need 1000 doctors and 1000 secretary and it takes 8 years of training to be the former and 1 year for the later, won't doctors be paid more even without shortage to take into account risks and length of studies?
      - rileymat2 7y ago
        No, but the length of study and risk will generally cause the shortage at a particular wage.
    - dragonwriter 7y ago
      > The fact that different professions earn different amounts of money is, in fact, an indicator that the higher paying professions have a shortage of people able to perform the work. While prospective purchasers tend to describe a situation in which market clearing price is above the price they are willing to pay as a shortage, it's not. A shortage is when nonprice rationing results in unmet demand willing to pay above the actual trading price. There's also a planning concept of a shortage in the form of supply inadequate to meet some threshold deemed essential, e.g., by society or authorities (which tends to result in economic shortage as price controls or nonprice rationing are imposed). Market price differences alone don't establish the existence of either type of shortage.
  - Nursie 7y ago
    Yup, this is a massive trope in the UK. "We need to import more people from wherever, there's a real shortage of software people!" No, there's a shortage of software people who are firstly willing to work for the £30K you seem to think is reasonable and secondly (implied by the pay on offer) willing to put up with being treated as if they are a junior, unskilled office worker. Which is why those with any ambition become contractors and consultants, or leave the county...
    - burntoutfire 7y ago
      > Yup, this is a massive trope in the UK. "We need to import more people from wherever, there's a real shortage of software people!" Following that logic, there must be a massive shortage of CEOs and high-level executives (given their salaries) - let's import them from Romania and significantly lower the costs across the economy!
    - spratzt 7y ago
      When I graduated it was said that if your were good enough to get a decent degree then you were wasting yourself in IT. It was true then and it remains true to-day.
      - Nursie 7y ago
        IT? Sure. IT is the guys that support the office printer and your outlook login. Useful people but it's hardly rocket science. Software development contracting and consultancy is a very different matter and can easily get you into the top one or two percent of incomes in the UK. The fact that a lot of small and medium businesses in the UK attempt to treat (and pay) the one as the other is part of the reason they're always bleating about not being able to find staff.
    - theriddlr 7y ago
      Only internationals graduating from UK universities qualify for a work visa with a £30k job. There is a real shortage of software engineers. The minimum pay for a non-EU software engineer coming into the UK was as high as £50k last year in April. It's only got lowered to £30k last month because of Brexit. It's the EU workers who are willing to work for £30k because non-EUs need to earn more than £35k after 5 years to apply for settlement in the UK.
ScottFree 7y ago
Dupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21723223 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21723223
GnarfGnarf 7y ago
Did Picasso retire? Did Pablo Casals retire? No. They painted or played till their dying breath. Real programmers never retire. They just lose their bits. Joel is a real programmer.
sgt101 7y ago
The HASH write up sounds awful like multi-agent simulation. I've recently had to return to looking at these things and in a "oh my god I need to do some MAS work" type panic I was relieved and gratified to find the the GAMA platform - so far I'm impressed. https://github.com/gama-platform/gama/releases https://github.com/gama-platform/gama/releases wonder what HASH will add to this kind of thing?
- DavidWilkinson 7y ago
  David from HASH here. I know that panic all too well... GAMA is great -- and we're big fans of the team! They've done an awesome job raising the profile, and improving perceptions, of ABM/MAS-type modeling. We're approaching things in a rather different manner, with a specific view to decreasing the time and complexity involved in building real-world (versus toy) models. We'll be drip-feeding invites (and more info) in the coming days.
fit2rule 7y ago
Hey Joel - check out the MagicShifter - it does everything you want to do, plus more .. like MIDI! Paint your own POV pics! http://magicshifter.net/ http://magicshifter.net/ sources: https://github.com/magicshifter/MS3000 https://github.com/magicshifter/MS3000 You can solder a long strip of LED's (we had up to 500) and address the whole thing over a handy Wifi interface .. the MS3000 provides its own web-based programming/config interface too. We added an Arpeggiator, and MIDI too (rtpMIDI as well as hard MIDI), because why not, and this means you can sync the LED strip to your drum machine with ease, Joel .. ;) (EDIT: douchebaggery--)
- jgrahamc 7y ago
  This looks cool. But "Everything Joels' trying to do with LED's, we already did with the MagicShifter" can read very negatively. Don't underestimate the joy of doing something yourself and making it happen. Such as me making a version of "Simon" in an Altoids can: https://blog.jgc.org/2012/05/simonoids-its-simon-in-altoids-can.html https://blog.jgc.org/2012/05/simonoids-its-simon-in-altoids-...
  - pg_is_a_butt 7y ago
    Telling someone that you personally read something as very negatively, and projecting that on the rest of the world can read very douchey. Maybe when you spend 17 years on a prototype to get it to market, and some other semi-retired individual starts their journey down the same path, you'll be able to keep your little trap shut and not try to help them. Oh wait, you couldn't. But, congrats on your tiny 4 button 2-bit memory loop knockoff from early 70's tech. You're such a positive person!
- linsomniac 7y ago
  There's also the PixelBlaze 2 controller, which connects via WiFi and can control individually addressable LED strips. It's pretty nice, costs around $25. https://www.tindie.com/products/electromage/electromage-pixelblaze-v2-wifi-led-controller/ https://www.tindie.com/products/electromage/electromage-pixe...
- mason55 7y ago
zabzonk 7y ago
Given the plug-hole that StackOverflow is currently spiralling down, I really think adult leadership from someone like Joel is sorely needed. But I can see why he would not want to bother with it.

90 points by jonasvp 7y ago

azhenley 7y ago

The article's actual title is: "So, how’s that retirement thing going, anyway?"

wglb 7y ago
When you see something like this, mail hn@ycombinator.com and they will fix it.

Clubber 7y ago

For those that don't know, Joel wrote many really good software development related articles/blogs in the early to mid aughts. The archives can be found on his site. I'd recommend anyone read them who works on a software development team in any capacity (management, dev, DBA, QA, etc).

chrisbennet 7y ago
My favorite Joel article is: "Whaddaya Mean, You Can’t Find Programmers?" https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/06/15/whaddaya-mean-you-cant-find-programmers/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/06/15/whaddaya-mean-you-... "Now, let’s review some microeconomics. In a free market, it is almost axiomatic that the market always clears. That’s a technical term that means that when somebody tries to sell something, if they are willing to accept the market price, they will be able to sell it, and when somebody wants to buy something, if they are willing to pay the market price, they will be able to buy it. It’s just a matter of both sides accepting the market price."
- spydum 7y ago
  Totally agree - it still cracks me up in my particular industry. “There’s a shortage of security engineers and architects” is a common trope. No there isn’t- you just aren’t paying more than SWE and other dev salaries. People would consider switching if the money was there.
  - monksy 7y ago
    Money isn't always the reason. In Chicago there are dev companies that are so toxic or imploding that they're well known.
    - marcoperaza 7y ago
      Most people would work in a toxic company for the right price. For an extremely awful job it might be very high, but just about everyone has a number.
      - ken 7y ago
        The bad companies, though, don't tend to offer more money than average. IME, they offer less. When a company is deaf to what developers care about in one department, they're usually deaf to what developers want in other departments, too.
  - wglb 7y ago
    I was successful in doing this. But I started out by finding software engineers that were interested in security and were willing to learn and turned them into higher-paid security folks.
    - spydum 7y ago
      absolutely this. most solid security people were devs with an interest who were given the opportunity to flip. the problem is employers want to pay below market prices, for someone who already has all of the skills they want. that just doesn't happen: those people command a lot more money. your approach is MUCH more practical (hire or transfer good interested devs internally, and train them up).
      - wglb 7y ago
        The hard part was working with HR to make the new salaries higher. Not a small task.
- toasterlovin 7y ago
  The fact that different professions earn different amounts of money is, in fact, an indicator that the higher paying professions have a shortage of people able to perform the work. Working conditions and pay for programmers are incredible and would be a life changing improvement for most people. That the profession hasn’t been flooded with talent is a strong indicator that there isn’t enough talent out there.
  - Amezarak 7y ago
    Working conditions and pay are highly variable. Pay outside of a few major metro areas is not that great, and working uncompensated overtime is common in the industry.
    - toasterlovin 7y ago
      Programming jobs are essentially universally better than food service or retail jobs. They're easier, they pay more, they're more prestigious.
  - Znafon 7y ago
    > The fact that different professions earn different amounts of money is, in fact, an indicator that the higher paying professions have a shortage of people able to perform the work. If we have 2000 people, we need 1000 doctors and 1000 secretary and it takes 8 years of training to be the former and 1 year for the later, won't doctors be paid more even without shortage to take into account risks and length of studies?
    - rileymat2 7y ago
      No, but the length of study and risk will generally cause the shortage at a particular wage.
  - dragonwriter 7y ago
    > The fact that different professions earn different amounts of money is, in fact, an indicator that the higher paying professions have a shortage of people able to perform the work. While prospective purchasers tend to describe a situation in which market clearing price is above the price they are willing to pay as a shortage, it's not. A shortage is when nonprice rationing results in unmet demand willing to pay above the actual trading price. There's also a planning concept of a shortage in the form of supply inadequate to meet some threshold deemed essential, e.g., by society or authorities (which tends to result in economic shortage as price controls or nonprice rationing are imposed). Market price differences alone don't establish the existence of either type of shortage.
- Nursie 7y ago
  Yup, this is a massive trope in the UK. "We need to import more people from wherever, there's a real shortage of software people!" No, there's a shortage of software people who are firstly willing to work for the £30K you seem to think is reasonable and secondly (implied by the pay on offer) willing to put up with being treated as if they are a junior, unskilled office worker. Which is why those with any ambition become contractors and consultants, or leave the county...
  - burntoutfire 7y ago
    > Yup, this is a massive trope in the UK. "We need to import more people from wherever, there's a real shortage of software people!" Following that logic, there must be a massive shortage of CEOs and high-level executives (given their salaries) - let's import them from Romania and significantly lower the costs across the economy!
  - spratzt 7y ago
    When I graduated it was said that if your were good enough to get a decent degree then you were wasting yourself in IT. It was true then and it remains true to-day.
    - Nursie 7y ago
      IT? Sure. IT is the guys that support the office printer and your outlook login. Useful people but it's hardly rocket science. Software development contracting and consultancy is a very different matter and can easily get you into the top one or two percent of incomes in the UK. The fact that a lot of small and medium businesses in the UK attempt to treat (and pay) the one as the other is part of the reason they're always bleating about not being able to find staff.
  - theriddlr 7y ago
    Only internationals graduating from UK universities qualify for a work visa with a £30k job. There is a real shortage of software engineers. The minimum pay for a non-EU software engineer coming into the UK was as high as £50k last year in April. It's only got lowered to £30k last month because of Brexit. It's the EU workers who are willing to work for £30k because non-EUs need to earn more than £35k after 5 years to apply for settlement in the UK.

ScottFree 7y ago

Dupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21723223 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21723223

GnarfGnarf 7y ago

Did Picasso retire? Did Pablo Casals retire? No. They painted or played till their dying breath. Real programmers never retire. They just lose their bits. Joel is a real programmer.

sgt101 7y ago

The HASH write up sounds awful like multi-agent simulation. I've recently had to return to looking at these things and in a "oh my god I need to do some MAS work" type panic I was relieved and gratified to find the the GAMA platform - so far I'm impressed. https://github.com/gama-platform/gama/releases https://github.com/gama-platform/gama/releases wonder what HASH will add to this kind of thing?

DavidWilkinson 7y ago
David from HASH here. I know that panic all too well... GAMA is great -- and we're big fans of the team! They've done an awesome job raising the profile, and improving perceptions, of ABM/MAS-type modeling. We're approaching things in a rather different manner, with a specific view to decreasing the time and complexity involved in building real-world (versus toy) models. We'll be drip-feeding invites (and more info) in the coming days.

fit2rule 7y ago

Hey Joel - check out the MagicShifter - it does everything you want to do, plus more .. like MIDI! Paint your own POV pics! http://magicshifter.net/ http://magicshifter.net/ sources: https://github.com/magicshifter/MS3000 https://github.com/magicshifter/MS3000 You can solder a long strip of LED's (we had up to 500) and address the whole thing over a handy Wifi interface .. the MS3000 provides its own web-based programming/config interface too. We added an Arpeggiator, and MIDI too (rtpMIDI as well as hard MIDI), because why not, and this means you can sync the LED strip to your drum machine with ease, Joel .. ;) (EDIT: douchebaggery--)

jgrahamc 7y ago
This looks cool. But "Everything Joels' trying to do with LED's, we already did with the MagicShifter" can read very negatively. Don't underestimate the joy of doing something yourself and making it happen. Such as me making a version of "Simon" in an Altoids can: https://blog.jgc.org/2012/05/simonoids-its-simon-in-altoids-can.html https://blog.jgc.org/2012/05/simonoids-its-simon-in-altoids-...
- pg_is_a_butt 7y ago
  Telling someone that you personally read something as very negatively, and projecting that on the rest of the world can read very douchey. Maybe when you spend 17 years on a prototype to get it to market, and some other semi-retired individual starts their journey down the same path, you'll be able to keep your little trap shut and not try to help them. Oh wait, you couldn't. But, congrats on your tiny 4 button 2-bit memory loop knockoff from early 70's tech. You're such a positive person!
linsomniac 7y ago
There's also the PixelBlaze 2 controller, which connects via WiFi and can control individually addressable LED strips. It's pretty nice, costs around $25. https://www.tindie.com/products/electromage/electromage-pixelblaze-v2-wifi-led-controller/ https://www.tindie.com/products/electromage/electromage-pixe...
mason55 7y ago

zabzonk 7y ago

Given the plug-hole that StackOverflow is currently spiralling down, I really think adult leadership from someone like Joel is sorely needed. But I can see why he would not want to bother with it.