5 ms·

"As a European living in the USA: the USA is much less free than any country in Europe." Not according to Freedom House. The US and most of Western Europe are

"As a European living in the USA: the USA is much less free than any country in Europe." Not according to Freedom House. The US and most of Western Europe are equally politically free: http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=15 http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=15 And economically the US is freer than any country in Europe http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/countries.cfm http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/countries.cfm "lack of public education" What are you talking about? The US has more than enough public schools. "Add to the above the blatant lack of equality in opportunity" Urban Myth. The per-capita GDP in the US is higher than almost every European country. Around $10,000 more than France, the UK or Germany. So your average US citizen is 30% wealthier than your average European. Income inequality (assuming that's a bad thing) is only slightly lower in the US than Europe too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality Also the US has a much higher proportion of the population with University qualifications than most of Europe too: http://www.oecd.org/document/31/0,2340,en_2649_201185_33710751_1_1_1_1,00.html http://www.oecd.org/document/31/0,2340,en_2649_201185_33710751_1_1_1_1,00.html "In short: high schools and undergraduate degrees in the USA suck big time" Could you back that up with some evidence?

albertcardona 19y ago
"Not according to Freedom House." The website you cite defines a Free Country as one where there is: 1) a broad scope for open political competition, 2) a climate for respect of civil liberties, 3) significant independent civic life, 4) independent media The USA does not have 1 (locked two-party system with associated elite families, if not in theory, at least in practice), 2 ( 9/11 related policies? Federal agencies capturing information on citizens continuously?) and 4 (there was an independent media some decades ago, not anymore). 3 is allowed in full only within the privacy of your home. Don't confuse economical prosperity with freedom. About "lack of public education": I am no native English speaker. I meant to say, lack of education of the public. General culture levels are very low among USA citizens. My data: you have no idea how many times I've been told that Spain is in the north of Mexico, and not by Mexicans obviously. Plus how many USA citizens can locate Iraq in a map? The statistics I've seen are hilarious. Severe lacunae in geography and history among USA citizens is the norm -even though my daily social environment is a university. Exceptions are very much welcome, and I have found out they are almost all first-generation americans with properly educated parents (by which I mean, their parents were born elsewhere and came to the USA as adults). If you get the GDP and remove the top 5% of rich people, the average citizens' wealth changes a lot. But the main point is: if born poor and grown uneducated, here in the USA the citizen is likely to remain poor and uneducated. Where I come from, free access all the way up to PhD education is the norm, then you're on your own and it's up to you, but at least the impact of the socioeconomic status of one's parent's is removed from the equation (not totally, but substantially). In my daily experience at the university, senior undergraduate students show the level of knowledge I am used to expect from freshmen, and the writing skills of a 14 year old. There are exceptions of course. And it's good that they catch-up during the first two years of graduate school. Something is horribly wrong in the education USA citizens receive between ages 14 and 22.
- lupin_sansei 19y ago
  "If you get the GDP and remove the top 5% of rich people, the average citizens' wealth changes a lot. " You made that figure up! The reason I also included the Gini coefficient was to demonstrate that income inequality in the US is reasonably low too. "Don't confuse economical prosperity with freedom." I didn't. I included BOTH Freedom House's ranking of political freedom (which equates the US as politically equal to Western Europe) AND economic freedom (which sets the US much higher than Europe.) According to Freedom House freedom of the press in the US is as free as Europe: http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=251&year=2006 http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=251&year=2006 "Where I come from, free access all the way up to PhD education is the norm" It's not free. You pay for it in high taxes all your life. Anyway the point is moot as even though you have a "free" education system in Europe the US still has a higher amount of university educated people than Europe according to the OECD.
- busy_beaver 19y ago
  And yet here you are. I'm curious: what made you decide to move to a country with no freedom, bad education and no culture?
  - lupin_sansei 19y ago
    Good point! And hanging out on the forum of a company which explicitly helps people start companies to freely get rich.
    - albertcardona 19y ago
      I came to the USA following a professor I just wanted to work with. He came here in the 80's because of the weather (no kidding), given an existing research environment similar to Europe. Before landing here I thought the USA was a great country. But my preconceptions have fallen. I am aware I have started a thread that is drifting way off topic and can potentially get very personal. If you'd like to discuss the issue further over a beer, that'd be great. We can then talk about why I pay almost identical income taxes in the USA and in Spain, and yet here my money doesn't seem to come back to me. You can reach me at my surname at ucla edu.

albertcardona 19y ago

"Not according to Freedom House." The website you cite defines a Free Country as one where there is: 1) a broad scope for open political competition, 2) a climate for respect of civil liberties, 3) significant independent civic life, 4) independent media The USA does not have 1 (locked two-party system with associated elite families, if not in theory, at least in practice), 2 ( 9/11 related policies? Federal agencies capturing information on citizens continuously?) and 4 (there was an independent media some decades ago, not anymore). 3 is allowed in full only within the privacy of your home. Don't confuse economical prosperity with freedom. About "lack of public education": I am no native English speaker. I meant to say, lack of education of the public. General culture levels are very low among USA citizens. My data: you have no idea how many times I've been told that Spain is in the north of Mexico, and not by Mexicans obviously. Plus how many USA citizens can locate Iraq in a map? The statistics I've seen are hilarious. Severe lacunae in geography and history among USA citizens is the norm -even though my daily social environment is a university. Exceptions are very much welcome, and I have found out they are almost all first-generation americans with properly educated parents (by which I mean, their parents were born elsewhere and came to the USA as adults). If you get the GDP and remove the top 5% of rich people, the average citizens' wealth changes a lot. But the main point is: if born poor and grown uneducated, here in the USA the citizen is likely to remain poor and uneducated. Where I come from, free access all the way up to PhD education is the norm, then you're on your own and it's up to you, but at least the impact of the socioeconomic status of one's parent's is removed from the equation (not totally, but substantially). In my daily experience at the university, senior undergraduate students show the level of knowledge I am used to expect from freshmen, and the writing skills of a 14 year old. There are exceptions of course. And it's good that they catch-up during the first two years of graduate school. Something is horribly wrong in the education USA citizens receive between ages 14 and 22.

lupin_sansei 19y ago
"If you get the GDP and remove the top 5% of rich people, the average citizens' wealth changes a lot. " You made that figure up! The reason I also included the Gini coefficient was to demonstrate that income inequality in the US is reasonably low too. "Don't confuse economical prosperity with freedom." I didn't. I included BOTH Freedom House's ranking of political freedom (which equates the US as politically equal to Western Europe) AND economic freedom (which sets the US much higher than Europe.) According to Freedom House freedom of the press in the US is as free as Europe: http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=251&year=2006 http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=251&year=2006 "Where I come from, free access all the way up to PhD education is the norm" It's not free. You pay for it in high taxes all your life. Anyway the point is moot as even though you have a "free" education system in Europe the US still has a higher amount of university educated people than Europe according to the OECD.
busy_beaver 19y ago
And yet here you are. I'm curious: what made you decide to move to a country with no freedom, bad education and no culture?
- lupin_sansei 19y ago
  Good point! And hanging out on the forum of a company which explicitly helps people start companies to freely get rich.
  - albertcardona 19y ago
    I came to the USA following a professor I just wanted to work with. He came here in the 80's because of the weather (no kidding), given an existing research environment similar to Europe. Before landing here I thought the USA was a great country. But my preconceptions have fallen. I am aware I have started a thread that is drifting way off topic and can potentially get very personal. If you'd like to discuss the issue further over a beer, that'd be great. We can then talk about why I pay almost identical income taxes in the USA and in Spain, and yet here my money doesn't seem to come back to me. You can reach me at my surname at ucla edu.