4 ms·

If you don't have any real penalty for fare evasion, what keeps people from doing it all the time? That's the whole reason we put people in jail for mere shopl

by magduf 7y ago

If you don't have any real penalty for fare evasion, what keeps people from doing it all the time? That's the whole reason we put people in jail for mere shoplifting, even if it's for something low-cost.

clairity 7y ago
it is a real penalty. there's usually a fine as well. but for the sake of argument, an hour lost would mean being late to work, to an appointment, or to another likely time-sensitive activity. additionally, there's the embarassment of being caught evading the fare (why is everyone staring? how do you explain your tardiness to family/friends/coworkers?). most people would avoid these penalties in and of themselves. regardless, the penalty isn't what deters most fare evasion (or shoplifting) except at the margins. mostly, adherence (that is, paying fares) is due to social cohesion, self-image, and social responsibility. that's why berlin, LA, and other transit systems have open transit gates. the cost of enforcement at the margins isn't worth it.
- clairity 7y ago
  further, most people who fare-evade (or shoplift) do so because they're desperate. jail time doesn't deter behavior for those cases nor does enforcement provide additional revenue (couldn't pay in the first place). no need to punish such folks more with jail time because they're already being punished by circumstance. being detained and fined is more than enough additional punishment here.
  - xyzzyz 7y ago
    > further, most people who fare-evade (or shoplift) do so because they're desperate. Next time you’re in the store in a less than perfectly clean and safe area, look at what kind of stuff is specially protected against shoplifting. In my experience, it’s usually washing liquid, shaving razors and hair products. Hardly the domain for the most desperate. You have quite a pollyanish view on society, where there are no wrongdoers: shoplifters never do this for profit, they are just desperate people forced by circumstance. This doesn’t match my experience.
- Scoundreller 7y ago
  Vancouver spent some $200m on a gated fare system. Fare evasion was 5%, or about $4m per year on the pre-existing ungated rail-portion of the system. And certainly fare evasion didn't go to zero after the install. Not a great ROI.
Scoundreller 7y ago
> what keeps people from doing it all the time? Because Germany. There's no need to evade when many/most employers give their staff free/discounted passes, the aged get discounted passes, students get discounted passes and the disadvantaged get free/discounted passes. There's heavy motivation for employers since it's not a taxable benefit. The economist in me doesn't like unlimited passes for transit, but if it doesn't bog down their system, then it's hard to argue against them.
jdavis703 7y ago
It is more reasonable to compare this with stealing parking. For example over-staying the time on a meter, skipping paying at all for a "quick" stop or parking in a no-parking zone is about the same as skipping a fare. Now if one wants to argue parking meter violations should result in jail time, that would be different...

by magduf 7y ago

clairity 7y ago

it is a real penalty. there's usually a fine as well. but for the sake of argument, an hour lost would mean being late to work, to an appointment, or to another likely time-sensitive activity. additionally, there's the embarassment of being caught evading the fare (why is everyone staring? how do you explain your tardiness to family/friends/coworkers?). most people would avoid these penalties in and of themselves. regardless, the penalty isn't what deters most fare evasion (or shoplifting) except at the margins. mostly, adherence (that is, paying fares) is due to social cohesion, self-image, and social responsibility. that's why berlin, LA, and other transit systems have open transit gates. the cost of enforcement at the margins isn't worth it.

clairity 7y ago
further, most people who fare-evade (or shoplift) do so because they're desperate. jail time doesn't deter behavior for those cases nor does enforcement provide additional revenue (couldn't pay in the first place). no need to punish such folks more with jail time because they're already being punished by circumstance. being detained and fined is more than enough additional punishment here.
- xyzzyz 7y ago
  > further, most people who fare-evade (or shoplift) do so because they're desperate. Next time you’re in the store in a less than perfectly clean and safe area, look at what kind of stuff is specially protected against shoplifting. In my experience, it’s usually washing liquid, shaving razors and hair products. Hardly the domain for the most desperate. You have quite a pollyanish view on society, where there are no wrongdoers: shoplifters never do this for profit, they are just desperate people forced by circumstance. This doesn’t match my experience.
Scoundreller 7y ago
Vancouver spent some $200m on a gated fare system. Fare evasion was 5%, or about $4m per year on the pre-existing ungated rail-portion of the system. And certainly fare evasion didn't go to zero after the install. Not a great ROI.

Scoundreller 7y ago

> what keeps people from doing it all the time? Because Germany. There's no need to evade when many/most employers give their staff free/discounted passes, the aged get discounted passes, students get discounted passes and the disadvantaged get free/discounted passes. There's heavy motivation for employers since it's not a taxable benefit. The economist in me doesn't like unlimited passes for transit, but if it doesn't bog down their system, then it's hard to argue against them.

jdavis703 7y ago

It is more reasonable to compare this with stealing parking. For example over-staying the time on a meter, skipping paying at all for a "quick" stop or parking in a no-parking zone is about the same as skipping a fare. Now if one wants to argue parking meter violations should result in jail time, that would be different...