6 ms·

I was always impressed by Berlin's subway. Some parts of it are very accessible, with the rails literally 20ft below the street. For example: https://youtu.be/

I was always impressed by Berlin's subway. Some parts of it are very accessible, with the rails literally 20ft below the street. For example: https://youtu.be/42EV-9G9vjo?t=230 https://youtu.be/42EV-9G9vjo?t=230 Also, no fare gates (there are occasional ticket checks on the trains, and heavy fines for non-payers).

rayiner 7y ago
> Also, no fare gates (there are occasional ticket checks on the trains, and heavy fines for non-payers). In Germany, fare evasion can in theory carry up to one year in jail. (In DC, max is 10 days, and we’re getting rid of even that.)
- clairity 7y ago
  > "In DC, max is 10 days, and we’re getting rid of even that." you seem to say this as if it's a bad thing. it's silly to think fare evasion is worth jailing someone, nevermind paying the administrative and enforcement costs of doing so. even holding someone for an hour is more than enough punishment (which is typically what happens anyway due to bureaucracy involved).
  - magduf 7y ago
    If you don't have any real penalty for fare evasion, what keeps people from doing it all the time? That's the whole reason we put people in jail for mere shoplifting, even if it's for something low-cost.
    - clairity 7y ago
      it is a real penalty. there's usually a fine as well. but for the sake of argument, an hour lost would mean being late to work, to an appointment, or to another likely time-sensitive activity. additionally, there's the embarassment of being caught evading the fare (why is everyone staring? how do you explain your tardiness to family/friends/coworkers?). most people would avoid these penalties in and of themselves. regardless, the penalty isn't what deters most fare evasion (or shoplifting) except at the margins. mostly, adherence (that is, paying fares) is due to social cohesion, self-image, and social responsibility. that's why berlin, LA, and other transit systems have open transit gates. the cost of enforcement at the margins isn't worth it.
      - clairity 7y ago
        further, most people who fare-evade (or shoplift) do so because they're desperate. jail time doesn't deter behavior for those cases nor does enforcement provide additional revenue (couldn't pay in the first place). no need to punish such folks more with jail time because they're already being punished by circumstance. being detained and fined is more than enough additional punishment here.
        xyzzyz 7y ago
        > further, most people who fare-evade (or shoplift) do so because they're desperate. Next time you’re in the store in a less than perfectly clean and safe area, look at what kind of stuff is specially protected against shoplifting. In my experience, it’s usually washing liquid, shaving razors and hair products. Hardly the domain for the most desperate. You have quite a pollyanish view on society, where there are no wrongdoers: shoplifters never do this for profit, they are just desperate people forced by circumstance. This doesn’t match my experience.
      - Scoundreller 7y ago
        Vancouver spent some $200m on a gated fare system. Fare evasion was 5%, or about $4m per year on the pre-existing ungated rail-portion of the system. And certainly fare evasion didn't go to zero after the install. Not a great ROI.
    - Scoundreller 7y ago
      > what keeps people from doing it all the time? Because Germany. There's no need to evade when many/most employers give their staff free/discounted passes, the aged get discounted passes, students get discounted passes and the disadvantaged get free/discounted passes. There's heavy motivation for employers since it's not a taxable benefit. The economist in me doesn't like unlimited passes for transit, but if it doesn't bog down their system, then it's hard to argue against them.
    - jdavis703 7y ago
      It is more reasonable to compare this with stealing parking. For example over-staying the time on a meter, skipping paying at all for a "quick" stop or parking in a no-parking zone is about the same as skipping a fare. Now if one wants to argue parking meter violations should result in jail time, that would be different...
  - tptacek 7y ago
    I don't read him saying that it's a bad thing, but rather that it's a policy choice that has implications for the cost of designing and building a station.
- adrianN 7y ago
  It can also ban you from becoming a public servant, or cost you your job if you already are one.
guruz 7y ago
> with the rails literally 20ft below the street. Some nice pictures about this: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unterpflasterbahn https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unterpflasterbahn Note that not all U trains in Berlin are like that, some are deeper (with a mezzazine) and some are partly on elevated tracks or outside the city they go overground just like normal trains.
Scoundreller 7y ago
> with the rails literally 20ft below the street. A lot of this has to do with construction techniques. If you cut and cover, this is manageable. But when you tunnel, you need to go as deep as you need to get tunnelable ground conditions. If you're building on marsh (and I think Berlin largely is?), tunnelling may be totally impractical.
- keiferski 7y ago
  > If you're building on marsh (and I think Berlin largely is?) Yep: The name Berlin has its roots in the language of West Slavic inhabitants of the area of today's Berlin, and may be related to the Old Polabian stem berl-/birl- ("swamp"). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

rayiner 7y ago

> Also, no fare gates (there are occasional ticket checks on the trains, and heavy fines for non-payers). In Germany, fare evasion can in theory carry up to one year in jail. (In DC, max is 10 days, and we’re getting rid of even that.)

clairity 7y ago
> "In DC, max is 10 days, and we’re getting rid of even that." you seem to say this as if it's a bad thing. it's silly to think fare evasion is worth jailing someone, nevermind paying the administrative and enforcement costs of doing so. even holding someone for an hour is more than enough punishment (which is typically what happens anyway due to bureaucracy involved).
- magduf 7y ago
  If you don't have any real penalty for fare evasion, what keeps people from doing it all the time? That's the whole reason we put people in jail for mere shoplifting, even if it's for something low-cost.
  - clairity 7y ago
    it is a real penalty. there's usually a fine as well. but for the sake of argument, an hour lost would mean being late to work, to an appointment, or to another likely time-sensitive activity. additionally, there's the embarassment of being caught evading the fare (why is everyone staring? how do you explain your tardiness to family/friends/coworkers?). most people would avoid these penalties in and of themselves. regardless, the penalty isn't what deters most fare evasion (or shoplifting) except at the margins. mostly, adherence (that is, paying fares) is due to social cohesion, self-image, and social responsibility. that's why berlin, LA, and other transit systems have open transit gates. the cost of enforcement at the margins isn't worth it.
    - clairity 7y ago
      further, most people who fare-evade (or shoplift) do so because they're desperate. jail time doesn't deter behavior for those cases nor does enforcement provide additional revenue (couldn't pay in the first place). no need to punish such folks more with jail time because they're already being punished by circumstance. being detained and fined is more than enough additional punishment here.
      - xyzzyz 7y ago
        > further, most people who fare-evade (or shoplift) do so because they're desperate. Next time you’re in the store in a less than perfectly clean and safe area, look at what kind of stuff is specially protected against shoplifting. In my experience, it’s usually washing liquid, shaving razors and hair products. Hardly the domain for the most desperate. You have quite a pollyanish view on society, where there are no wrongdoers: shoplifters never do this for profit, they are just desperate people forced by circumstance. This doesn’t match my experience.
    - Scoundreller 7y ago
      Vancouver spent some $200m on a gated fare system. Fare evasion was 5%, or about $4m per year on the pre-existing ungated rail-portion of the system. And certainly fare evasion didn't go to zero after the install. Not a great ROI.
  - Scoundreller 7y ago
    > what keeps people from doing it all the time? Because Germany. There's no need to evade when many/most employers give their staff free/discounted passes, the aged get discounted passes, students get discounted passes and the disadvantaged get free/discounted passes. There's heavy motivation for employers since it's not a taxable benefit. The economist in me doesn't like unlimited passes for transit, but if it doesn't bog down their system, then it's hard to argue against them.
  - jdavis703 7y ago
    It is more reasonable to compare this with stealing parking. For example over-staying the time on a meter, skipping paying at all for a "quick" stop or parking in a no-parking zone is about the same as skipping a fare. Now if one wants to argue parking meter violations should result in jail time, that would be different...
- tptacek 7y ago
  I don't read him saying that it's a bad thing, but rather that it's a policy choice that has implications for the cost of designing and building a station.
adrianN 7y ago
It can also ban you from becoming a public servant, or cost you your job if you already are one.

guruz 7y ago

> with the rails literally 20ft below the street. Some nice pictures about this: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unterpflasterbahn https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unterpflasterbahn Note that not all U trains in Berlin are like that, some are deeper (with a mezzazine) and some are partly on elevated tracks or outside the city they go overground just like normal trains.

Scoundreller 7y ago

> with the rails literally 20ft below the street. A lot of this has to do with construction techniques. If you cut and cover, this is manageable. But when you tunnel, you need to go as deep as you need to get tunnelable ground conditions. If you're building on marsh (and I think Berlin largely is?), tunnelling may be totally impractical.

keiferski 7y ago
> If you're building on marsh (and I think Berlin largely is?) Yep: The name Berlin has its roots in the language of West Slavic inhabitants of the area of today's Berlin, and may be related to the Old Polabian stem berl-/birl- ("swamp"). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]