5 ms·

Abstinence based policies are not working. We need to let people hold and talk on their phone. Everyone is trying to hide their phone. Ride in a bus in the bay

Abstinence based policies are not working. We need to let people hold and talk on their phone. Everyone is trying to hide their phone. Ride in a bus in the bay area and you'll see ~25-50% of people on their phone on a given day. Are there any studies of cities that allowing talking on the phone, but no texting?

skummetmaelk 7y ago
No, we don't need to let people hold and talk on their phone when operating a multiple ton machine at highway speeds.
- blackearl 7y ago
  Are you going to ban talking in the car as well?
  - chapium 7y ago
    Its very different. A passenger has a stake in the safety of the vehicle and reacts to surroundings. They pause when the driver is entering a complicated intersection and sometimes remind the driver to look at the road.
    - blackearl 7y ago
      Not in my experience. They're playing with the music, on their phone, reading, hanging their feet out the window, etc. In fact if you're one of those backseat drivers "reminding me to look at the road" (as if I'm not paying attention) you can find your own transportation.
  - commandlinefan 7y ago
    Not just talking, we have to ban listening too. If somebody is listening to the radio, they're not focusing absolutely 100% of their attention on driving, so that makes them a menace. Never mind that statistics don't show that listening to the radio causes accidents (just as statistics don't show that talking on the phone causes accidents), we won't rest until everybody is miserable all the time.
- thrwn_frthr_awy 7y ago
  Even if it is less dangerous than the current alternative of people hiding their phones to text instead? Even if less people die?
- pnutjam 7y ago
  My car doesn't have aux-in or bluetooth, so I'll often listen to a ebook via TTS while holding my phone on my shoulder (if it's loud), or in my chest pocket if it's not loud in the area.
asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
I wonder how harsh penalties would have to get before you'd achieve an acceptable level of compliance. Like, I'm not suggesting this is a good idea. But if you instated a nation-wide death penalty for texting and driving, and then actually executed a few people, compliance would likely follow soon after. People would be terrified to look at their phones while driving. OK, that's probably too harsh (although viewed from a utilitarian lens, perhaps not?). What if the fine were like $10k, and were handed down liberally for first offenders? None of this is going to happen of course. I suspect we'll be living with this problem until self-driving cars are ubiquitous. I'm just sort of morbidly curious what level of viciousness would be required to convince people to behave like responsible human beings.
- pnutjam 7y ago
  --- But if you instated a nation-wide death penalty for texting and driving, and then actually executed a few people, compliance would likely follow soon after. --- Draconian enforcement has it's place, but it's not on this sort of policy. This would either become a tool of assassination, or just kill a bunch of young, poor people. The enforcement would stop for wealthy kids in privileged areas. Honestly, this is a more carrot then stick problem. It's unsolvable with the privacy rights American's are entitled to under the constitution. The best approach would be to incentivize safe usage and create some sort of system to track and penalize unsafe behavior. It would need to be a minor fine, but that would make enforcement more likely, give better data, and allow us to punish habitual offenders who actually cause harm.
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
    The thought experiment is predicated on just application of the policy. There are dozens of practical problems with the idea more serious than "it would cut unevenly across socioeconomic and racial layers." The carrot/stick idea is interesting though. I wonder if you could incentivize manufacturers to make a really good triangulating beacon that would allow a phone to know if it's in the driver area of the car, and whether the car is in motion. The phone could disable all functions for the duration of the drive based on this signal. You'd do this in firmware and ideally using some sort of chain of trust that can't be circumvented by rooting the phone. Free software folks would squawk, but the world might be better off for it.
asdf21 7y ago
Unpopular anecdote: I used to have a great system for texting and driving, before it was made illegal in CA -- I generally drive with my left hand, so I would hold my phone up on the steering wheel with my right hand (at 3:00) and I would text as needed with my right thumb. Since I was holding the phone up on the wheel, I would never take my eyes off the road to text. I did this frequently for years and years, was never really distracted, got very good at it (quick at thumb typing), didn't have any issues to speak of. Then, when it became illegal, I got like two tickets for doing this in two years. So, I learned to start hiding my phone way down low on my lap to text. Now, if I decide to text while driving, I constantly have to take my eyes off the road and look way down at my lap to text, for seconds at a time. Texting the easy and safe way, where the phone is held next to the steering wheel, has been punished and gets tickets. Texting the unsafe way, holding the phone down at lap level, rarely gets a ticket. In the next couple years of holding my phone down at my lap level to text, I had not gotten any tickets, but I did have some minor issues doing this. Since I had to take my eyes off the road to text this way, I caught myself swerving towards the center line, or the berm, etc., multiple times. And I almost rear ended someone because traffic stopped when I was looking down at my lap for 1-2 seconds. Because of these issues, I gave up texting and driving entirely, however, I doubt most people ever will, as I tend to have a lot more self-control than most people (I've completely quit drinking, quit smoking, quit gaming, etc.) Overall, I find it very ironic that the safe(est) way of texting, where you don't have to take your eyes off the road, is punished, while the unsafe, dangerous way (holding your phone at lap level) is not. Banning texting basically made it far less safe than it used to be -- everyone holds their phone at lap level now, so of course that's a huge issue.
- 4ntonius8lock 7y ago
  There's no safe texting and driving. You're lucky you didn't murder anyone. This is how you sound to me: > When I drive drunk, I drive real slow. But I started getting pulled over, so I started driving drunk and at normal speeds. It's so dangerous to do that. Why can't I drive drunk really slow, it is the safest way to drive drunk after all! Most people don't have the self control I do. If you find that unconvincing, don't expect others to find your anecdote convincing.
- 7y ago
GrinningFool 7y ago
I'd say the 'no talking/text' laws went into effect locally, the problem has gotten worse. Anecdotally, I would previously see people would holding their phones up in front of the windshield while they used it. This would at least reduce the time required to switch focus between the road and the phone. With the regulations now in place, as you said everyone is trying to hide it. This usually means below the dashboard - so the driver is now looking _down_ at their phone. Not only does this seem to increase the amount of time spent looking away from the road (it's slower to switch, and so people are doing it less), it also greatly reduces even _peripheral_ awareness that something relevant may be unfolding on the road.

skummetmaelk 7y ago

No, we don't need to let people hold and talk on their phone when operating a multiple ton machine at highway speeds.

blackearl 7y ago
Are you going to ban talking in the car as well?
- chapium 7y ago
  Its very different. A passenger has a stake in the safety of the vehicle and reacts to surroundings. They pause when the driver is entering a complicated intersection and sometimes remind the driver to look at the road.
  - blackearl 7y ago
    Not in my experience. They're playing with the music, on their phone, reading, hanging their feet out the window, etc. In fact if you're one of those backseat drivers "reminding me to look at the road" (as if I'm not paying attention) you can find your own transportation.
- commandlinefan 7y ago
  Not just talking, we have to ban listening too. If somebody is listening to the radio, they're not focusing absolutely 100% of their attention on driving, so that makes them a menace. Never mind that statistics don't show that listening to the radio causes accidents (just as statistics don't show that talking on the phone causes accidents), we won't rest until everybody is miserable all the time.
thrwn_frthr_awy 7y ago
Even if it is less dangerous than the current alternative of people hiding their phones to text instead? Even if less people die?
pnutjam 7y ago
My car doesn't have aux-in or bluetooth, so I'll often listen to a ebook via TTS while holding my phone on my shoulder (if it's loud), or in my chest pocket if it's not loud in the area.

asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago

I wonder how harsh penalties would have to get before you'd achieve an acceptable level of compliance. Like, I'm not suggesting this is a good idea. But if you instated a nation-wide death penalty for texting and driving, and then actually executed a few people, compliance would likely follow soon after. People would be terrified to look at their phones while driving. OK, that's probably too harsh (although viewed from a utilitarian lens, perhaps not?). What if the fine were like $10k, and were handed down liberally for first offenders? None of this is going to happen of course. I suspect we'll be living with this problem until self-driving cars are ubiquitous. I'm just sort of morbidly curious what level of viciousness would be required to convince people to behave like responsible human beings.

pnutjam 7y ago
--- But if you instated a nation-wide death penalty for texting and driving, and then actually executed a few people, compliance would likely follow soon after. --- Draconian enforcement has it's place, but it's not on this sort of policy. This would either become a tool of assassination, or just kill a bunch of young, poor people. The enforcement would stop for wealthy kids in privileged areas. Honestly, this is a more carrot then stick problem. It's unsolvable with the privacy rights American's are entitled to under the constitution. The best approach would be to incentivize safe usage and create some sort of system to track and penalize unsafe behavior. It would need to be a minor fine, but that would make enforcement more likely, give better data, and allow us to punish habitual offenders who actually cause harm.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
  The thought experiment is predicated on just application of the policy. There are dozens of practical problems with the idea more serious than "it would cut unevenly across socioeconomic and racial layers." The carrot/stick idea is interesting though. I wonder if you could incentivize manufacturers to make a really good triangulating beacon that would allow a phone to know if it's in the driver area of the car, and whether the car is in motion. The phone could disable all functions for the duration of the drive based on this signal. You'd do this in firmware and ideally using some sort of chain of trust that can't be circumvented by rooting the phone. Free software folks would squawk, but the world might be better off for it.

asdf21 7y ago

Unpopular anecdote: I used to have a great system for texting and driving, before it was made illegal in CA -- I generally drive with my left hand, so I would hold my phone up on the steering wheel with my right hand (at 3:00) and I would text as needed with my right thumb. Since I was holding the phone up on the wheel, I would never take my eyes off the road to text. I did this frequently for years and years, was never really distracted, got very good at it (quick at thumb typing), didn't have any issues to speak of. Then, when it became illegal, I got like two tickets for doing this in two years. So, I learned to start hiding my phone way down low on my lap to text. Now, if I decide to text while driving, I constantly have to take my eyes off the road and look way down at my lap to text, for seconds at a time. Texting the easy and safe way, where the phone is held next to the steering wheel, has been punished and gets tickets. Texting the unsafe way, holding the phone down at lap level, rarely gets a ticket. In the next couple years of holding my phone down at my lap level to text, I had not gotten any tickets, but I did have some minor issues doing this. Since I had to take my eyes off the road to text this way, I caught myself swerving towards the center line, or the berm, etc., multiple times. And I almost rear ended someone because traffic stopped when I was looking down at my lap for 1-2 seconds. Because of these issues, I gave up texting and driving entirely, however, I doubt most people ever will, as I tend to have a lot more self-control than most people (I've completely quit drinking, quit smoking, quit gaming, etc.) Overall, I find it very ironic that the safe(est) way of texting, where you don't have to take your eyes off the road, is punished, while the unsafe, dangerous way (holding your phone at lap level) is not. Banning texting basically made it far less safe than it used to be -- everyone holds their phone at lap level now, so of course that's a huge issue.

4ntonius8lock 7y ago
There's no safe texting and driving. You're lucky you didn't murder anyone. This is how you sound to me: > When I drive drunk, I drive real slow. But I started getting pulled over, so I started driving drunk and at normal speeds. It's so dangerous to do that. Why can't I drive drunk really slow, it is the safest way to drive drunk after all! Most people don't have the self control I do. If you find that unconvincing, don't expect others to find your anecdote convincing.
7y ago

GrinningFool 7y ago

I'd say the 'no talking/text' laws went into effect locally, the problem has gotten worse. Anecdotally, I would previously see people would holding their phones up in front of the windshield while they used it. This would at least reduce the time required to switch focus between the road and the phone. With the regulations now in place, as you said everyone is trying to hide it. This usually means below the dashboard - so the driver is now looking _down_ at their phone. Not only does this seem to increase the amount of time spent looking away from the road (it's slower to switch, and so people are doing it less), it also greatly reduces even _peripheral_ awareness that something relevant may be unfolding on the road.