15 ms·

It would be reasonable for Steam to allow refunds for games that break like this, and bill the publisher for it.

by crummy 7y ago

rlayton2 7y ago
IANAL, but I believe that in Australia, you would be entitled to a refund. There is no fixed time limit on refunds, and it would be reasonable to suggest that a game like this should just keep working. You'd probably have to argue your case still, as the company isn't likely to just refund without a fight. (As an aside, if you get a dishwasher and use it for 10 years, the "general wear and tear" would deny your refund, as it would be reasonable to suggest that ongoing usage would wear down the machine, especially, for instance, if you didn't do the regular maintenance suggested. )
- watsonian__ 7y ago
  It would be a refund in Australia as it is a faulty product. They may try stiff you on returning a physical disk (how do you prove it was faulty on sale?) but a good store will offer store credit at the very least because video games do not make money. The consoles do. The only times a refund can be denied in Australia when a problem occurs is if it was caused by you or if you changed your mind on a purchase. Otherwise the purchaser can dictate how they are rectified (swap, credit or refund). Edit: This is assuming you purchase it now. If you purchased it 9 years ago - it would be tough luck. The pivot is the condition at point of sale.
  - Bnshsysjab 7y ago
    What? Australian consumer law has a limitation on 2 years or reasonable lifetime. Games don’t last forever and get obsoleted by newer operating systems. Sure I can run wine/VMware but I can also keep my 100 year old washing machine running with regular repairs which isn’t fixing the issue of deprecation or end of life.
    - arcticbull 7y ago
      Sure but as long as it runs on the latest version of Windows then does it matter? And based on other posters comments they updated it in 2017 to support windows 10.
    - Dylan16807 7y ago
      > Games don’t last forever and get obsoleted by newer operating systems. That doesn't excuse it now failing to run on Windows 7.
      - Bnshsysjab 7y ago
        If the bug was time based but not related to anti piracy would this even make the news? What about disc rot? Or n64 not working because nobody uses RCA anymore?
        Dylan16807 7y ago
        If it was just a time-based bug you could alter the clock or use software to fake it. Look, already exists: https://www.nirsoft.net/utils/run_as_date.html https://www.nirsoft.net/utils/run_as_date.html Disc rot won't affect anyone that made a backup, and anyone that didn't could find an iso I'm sure. An N64 still works the way it always did, just like if you installed this game on windows 7.
        codebje 7y ago
        There's a pretty vast difference between an N64 being less widely useful because it's hard to source an RCA display (hint: you can buy an RCA to HDMI adaptor cheaply) and N64s including a remote "kill switch" that one day gets flipped, destroying all N64s immediately. Disney has sabotaged people's property by using (allowing a third party to use) a kill switch, and that shouldn't be acceptable. If a washing machine called home and checked that it's okay to run each time it was connected to power anew, and one day all of a particular model of washing machine was remotely told to stop working, I'm sure that would make the news.
        boomlinde 7y ago
  - kuzimoto 7y ago
    I always thought it was the other way around - that games make the money. Aren't consoles even usually sold at a loss?
    - hnick 7y ago
      Typically yes. I think Nintendo sometimes turns a profit on consoles due to optimising on other factors than cutting edge power. Consoles can also become profitable over their lifetime as technology matures.
  - thaumasiotes 7y ago
    > video games do not make money. The consoles do. Where did this idea come from?
    - Double_a_92 7y ago
      Standard Oil probably. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Razor_and_blades_model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Razor_and_blades_model
      - thaumasiotes 7y ago
        Except that consoles do work on this model, and they are the razor, not the blades. When did you ever hear of someone getting a new console for the game they already have?
        Double_a_92 7y ago
        Oh, I misread where the "not" was.
  - friendlybus 7y ago
    >because video games do not make money Fortnite made $300 million per month.
- nebulous1 7y ago
  I don't know about Australia specifically but usually when consumer legislation doesn't mention time frame there's still a limitation on how long after the contract of sale that you can bring a case against the seller, and this serves as the practical time frame as there's no way to enforce a refund without going to court.
  - inopinatus 7y ago
    IANAL but I do run a business that's subject to Australian consumer law. The limitations are not based on the date of the contract of sale, but the date on which the consumer became aware (or reasonably could have been aware) the product was defective, and/or an action was taken by some party to render the product defective. The consumer legislation does specify a six-year time limit from then on, but that clock only just started ticking. However, a refund is not obligatory. Repair i.e. a patch is an acceptable remedy under ACL.
    - wyongriver 7y ago
      You may be right but my reading of this would breach the ACL for “Undisturbed Possession of Goods”. That is - unless you told the customer the game had a limited life you can’t stop them using it. Doing so triggers a “remedy” - which - for a “major fault” is a refund. https://consumerlaw.gov.au/sites/consumer/files/2016/05/0553FT_ACL-guides_Guarantees_web.pdf https://consumerlaw.gov.au/sites/consumer/files/2016/05/0553... (Page 17) This can’t be hidden in a EULA. It has to be prominent or the term will be ruled invalid under the “Unfair Contract Term” provisions of the ACL. For those not familiar, ACL trumps all consumer contracts with standard terms. There are penalties for misrepresenting ACL (eg “No refunds” signs are banned, so are limits to consequential damages. Warranties are for a “reasonable” time, etc. )
      - inopinatus 7y ago
        Whatever you or I might think of DRM, it's not a "major failure" to offer products with it. Other provisions apply, but not that one.
Zenst 7y ago
You would of thought, there again - what happens when Steam raises its requirements and that stops you playing the game(s).
- BlueTemplar 7y ago
  Indeed, have they given any refunds for (the few) Windows XP-only games when Steam dropped support for that OS ?
  - Zenst 7y ago
    Not as far as I'm aware, or Vista(1) users and indeed, Windows 7 stalwarts will have an awakening moment in the next year or so. Their EULA kinda covers them fully into not offering refunds in such circumstances as well. Which does raise the issue, if the OS the game was written for initially loses support and you don't see Microsoft offering refunds, why should games when you have had years of fun. Sure it's a sour pill and back in board game days - nobody expected to purchase Monopoly and suddenly due changes later like an emissions zone introduction, find that they was unable to play that game anymore as their playing pieces all exceeded the emissions limits! Mad analogy I know, but does help curry perspective upon this. However, it gets down to - did the game being sold mention any of this or forewarned, or indeed - have an expiry date! Nope. Heck, does an OS like XP come with an expiry date or any form of notice that it would ceased to work as sold? I'd guess not. So much in the land of software and consumer rights or at the very least some level of guarantee is needed or at the very least, existing protection is updated or inforced to shake up this limbo state of consumer miss selling. Which it is when you get to the crux of it. Still, another way to view it mad-analogy wise is that software is like fuel and if your car stops being unable to get spare parts or is unable to drive down roads it used to be able to due to some new regulation that came in. Well the fuel still works in newer cars that conform and is it the fuel companies fault if you unable to use that fuel in your car any more? So many ways to look at this, but it certainly makes linux gaming more appealing for longevity and equally makes open source games more appealing as it the edge case, you have the power to fix the issue yourself if you encounter one. Thinking about it, the only OS that comes to mind that is sold with a definitive support end date from date of purchase would be ChromeOS upon chromebooks. [EDIT ADD] (1) https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/1/1736595227854998687/ https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/1/1736595227854...
autoexec 7y ago
Assuming that the publisher still exists.
- baroffoos 7y ago
  A nice way to solve this would be for steam to require all games provide a drm free version to valve and in the event where the DRM breaks and the publisher is gone steam will replace everyones copy with the drm free version. Although these days I don't think valve is really in the position to demand such a thing.
  - Moru 7y ago
    You don't own the things you buy on steam, it's more like renting. When the game stops working, you loose the right to play it.
    - wokkel 7y ago
      That's what valve says. Luckily not everything in their nonsense license agreement is enforcable as a judge recently ruled: https://www.polygon.com/2019/9/19/20874384/french-court-steam-valve-used-games-eu-law https://www.polygon.com/2019/9/19/20874384/french-court-stea...
      - BlueTemplar 7y ago
        But then a German court ruled otherwise, so the jurisprudence doesn't seem to be clear yet?
        wokkel 7y ago
        I cannot find a source for that. Care to share?
        tremon 7y ago
        Not sure about Germany, but here's a thread about the French court decision: https://www.neogaf.com/threads/steam-forced-to-authorize-the-sale-of-second-hand-games-in-france.1503124/ https://www.neogaf.com/threads/steam-forced-to-authorize-the...
Shivetya 7y ago
Steam doesn't even care if the developer drops all support, they are more than willing to charge for it and not tell you that there is no support, continued development, and such. It is one reason I am loathe to buy anything on that platform. they should be required to notify you when you browse a game that it has no support.
- baroffoos 7y ago
  They do offer refunds for under 2 hours gameplay. This doesn't help when you have been playing for years and then it stops working but it does prevent you from buying a broken game today.
  - limomium 7y ago
    Only up to a week after the purchase. Make sure to TEST every game you buy on a sale; otherwise your old, never-played but doesn't-work games are dead without refund.
    - nottorp 7y ago
      Apparently I still own Max Payne 3 because they lied in the game description that it doesn't require you to be online for single player. Three months after purchase when I got around to starting it, it was too late for a refund...
  - BlueTemplar 7y ago
    Only after having lost in an Australian court relatively recently?
    - morsch 7y ago
      Steam refunds were introduced in June 2015: https://www.ign.com/articles/2015/06/02/steam-introduces-refund-system https://www.ign.com/articles/2015/06/02/steam-introduces-ref...
      - 7y ago
kova12 7y ago
But isn't like taking your Picasso and refunding you back five shillings ten pence your ancestor gave for it? For many players the game is not than just the fifty bucks they payed, it's countless hours spent with it. It's far beyond the purchase price.
- nightfly 7y ago
  The countless hours they've spent on it is the value the consumer has extracted from the game, not some investment to be recouped.

It would be reasonable for Steam to allow refunds for games that break like this, and bill the publisher for it.

by crummy 7y ago

It would be reasonable for Steam to allow refunds for games that break like this, and bill the publisher for it.

IANAL, but I believe that in Australia, you would be entitled to a refund. There is no fixed time limit on refunds, and it would be reasonable to suggest that a game like this should just keep working. You'd probably have to argue your case still, as the company isn't likely to just refund without a fight. (As an aside, if you get a dishwasher and use it for 10 years, the "general wear and tear" would deny your refund, as it would be reasonable to suggest that ongoing usage would wear down the machine, especially, for instance, if you didn't do the regular maintenance suggested. )

watsonian__ 7y ago
It would be a refund in Australia as it is a faulty product. They may try stiff you on returning a physical disk (how do you prove it was faulty on sale?) but a good store will offer store credit at the very least because video games do not make money. The consoles do. The only times a refund can be denied in Australia when a problem occurs is if it was caused by you or if you changed your mind on a purchase. Otherwise the purchaser can dictate how they are rectified (swap, credit or refund). Edit: This is assuming you purchase it now. If you purchased it 9 years ago - it would be tough luck. The pivot is the condition at point of sale.
- Bnshsysjab 7y ago
  What? Australian consumer law has a limitation on 2 years or reasonable lifetime. Games don’t last forever and get obsoleted by newer operating systems. Sure I can run wine/VMware but I can also keep my 100 year old washing machine running with regular repairs which isn’t fixing the issue of deprecation or end of life.
  - arcticbull 7y ago
    Sure but as long as it runs on the latest version of Windows then does it matter? And based on other posters comments they updated it in 2017 to support windows 10.
  - Dylan16807 7y ago
    > Games don’t last forever and get obsoleted by newer operating systems. That doesn't excuse it now failing to run on Windows 7.
    - Bnshsysjab 7y ago
      If the bug was time based but not related to anti piracy would this even make the news? What about disc rot? Or n64 not working because nobody uses RCA anymore?
      - Dylan16807 7y ago
        If it was just a time-based bug you could alter the clock or use software to fake it. Look, already exists: https://www.nirsoft.net/utils/run_as_date.html https://www.nirsoft.net/utils/run_as_date.html Disc rot won't affect anyone that made a backup, and anyone that didn't could find an iso I'm sure. An N64 still works the way it always did, just like if you installed this game on windows 7.
      - codebje 7y ago
        There's a pretty vast difference between an N64 being less widely useful because it's hard to source an RCA display (hint: you can buy an RCA to HDMI adaptor cheaply) and N64s including a remote "kill switch" that one day gets flipped, destroying all N64s immediately. Disney has sabotaged people's property by using (allowing a third party to use) a kill switch, and that shouldn't be acceptable. If a washing machine called home and checked that it's okay to run each time it was connected to power anew, and one day all of a particular model of washing machine was remotely told to stop working, I'm sure that would make the news.
      - boomlinde 7y ago
- kuzimoto 7y ago
  I always thought it was the other way around - that games make the money. Aren't consoles even usually sold at a loss?
  - hnick 7y ago
    Typically yes. I think Nintendo sometimes turns a profit on consoles due to optimising on other factors than cutting edge power. Consoles can also become profitable over their lifetime as technology matures.
- thaumasiotes 7y ago
  > video games do not make money. The consoles do. Where did this idea come from?
  - Double_a_92 7y ago
    Standard Oil probably. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Razor_and_blades_model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Razor_and_blades_model
    - thaumasiotes 7y ago
      Except that consoles do work on this model, and they are the razor, not the blades. When did you ever hear of someone getting a new console for the game they already have?
      - Double_a_92 7y ago
        Oh, I misread where the "not" was.
- friendlybus 7y ago
  >because video games do not make money Fortnite made $300 million per month.
nebulous1 7y ago
I don't know about Australia specifically but usually when consumer legislation doesn't mention time frame there's still a limitation on how long after the contract of sale that you can bring a case against the seller, and this serves as the practical time frame as there's no way to enforce a refund without going to court.
- inopinatus 7y ago
  IANAL but I do run a business that's subject to Australian consumer law. The limitations are not based on the date of the contract of sale, but the date on which the consumer became aware (or reasonably could have been aware) the product was defective, and/or an action was taken by some party to render the product defective. The consumer legislation does specify a six-year time limit from then on, but that clock only just started ticking. However, a refund is not obligatory. Repair i.e. a patch is an acceptable remedy under ACL.
  - wyongriver 7y ago
    You may be right but my reading of this would breach the ACL for “Undisturbed Possession of Goods”. That is - unless you told the customer the game had a limited life you can’t stop them using it. Doing so triggers a “remedy” - which - for a “major fault” is a refund. https://consumerlaw.gov.au/sites/consumer/files/2016/05/0553FT_ACL-guides_Guarantees_web.pdf https://consumerlaw.gov.au/sites/consumer/files/2016/05/0553... (Page 17) This can’t be hidden in a EULA. It has to be prominent or the term will be ruled invalid under the “Unfair Contract Term” provisions of the ACL. For those not familiar, ACL trumps all consumer contracts with standard terms. There are penalties for misrepresenting ACL (eg “No refunds” signs are banned, so are limits to consequential damages. Warranties are for a “reasonable” time, etc. )
    - inopinatus 7y ago
      Whatever you or I might think of DRM, it's not a "major failure" to offer products with it. Other provisions apply, but not that one.

Zenst 7y ago

You would of thought, there again - what happens when Steam raises its requirements and that stops you playing the game(s).

BlueTemplar 7y ago
Indeed, have they given any refunds for (the few) Windows XP-only games when Steam dropped support for that OS ?
- Zenst 7y ago
  Not as far as I'm aware, or Vista(1) users and indeed, Windows 7 stalwarts will have an awakening moment in the next year or so. Their EULA kinda covers them fully into not offering refunds in such circumstances as well. Which does raise the issue, if the OS the game was written for initially loses support and you don't see Microsoft offering refunds, why should games when you have had years of fun. Sure it's a sour pill and back in board game days - nobody expected to purchase Monopoly and suddenly due changes later like an emissions zone introduction, find that they was unable to play that game anymore as their playing pieces all exceeded the emissions limits! Mad analogy I know, but does help curry perspective upon this. However, it gets down to - did the game being sold mention any of this or forewarned, or indeed - have an expiry date! Nope. Heck, does an OS like XP come with an expiry date or any form of notice that it would ceased to work as sold? I'd guess not. So much in the land of software and consumer rights or at the very least some level of guarantee is needed or at the very least, existing protection is updated or inforced to shake up this limbo state of consumer miss selling. Which it is when you get to the crux of it. Still, another way to view it mad-analogy wise is that software is like fuel and if your car stops being unable to get spare parts or is unable to drive down roads it used to be able to due to some new regulation that came in. Well the fuel still works in newer cars that conform and is it the fuel companies fault if you unable to use that fuel in your car any more? So many ways to look at this, but it certainly makes linux gaming more appealing for longevity and equally makes open source games more appealing as it the edge case, you have the power to fix the issue yourself if you encounter one. Thinking about it, the only OS that comes to mind that is sold with a definitive support end date from date of purchase would be ChromeOS upon chromebooks. [EDIT ADD] (1) https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/1/1736595227854998687/ https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/1/1736595227854...

autoexec 7y ago

Assuming that the publisher still exists.

baroffoos 7y ago
A nice way to solve this would be for steam to require all games provide a drm free version to valve and in the event where the DRM breaks and the publisher is gone steam will replace everyones copy with the drm free version. Although these days I don't think valve is really in the position to demand such a thing.
- Moru 7y ago
  You don't own the things you buy on steam, it's more like renting. When the game stops working, you loose the right to play it.
  - wokkel 7y ago
    That's what valve says. Luckily not everything in their nonsense license agreement is enforcable as a judge recently ruled: https://www.polygon.com/2019/9/19/20874384/french-court-steam-valve-used-games-eu-law https://www.polygon.com/2019/9/19/20874384/french-court-stea...
    - BlueTemplar 7y ago
      But then a German court ruled otherwise, so the jurisprudence doesn't seem to be clear yet?
      - wokkel 7y ago
        I cannot find a source for that. Care to share?
        tremon 7y ago
        Not sure about Germany, but here's a thread about the French court decision: https://www.neogaf.com/threads/steam-forced-to-authorize-the-sale-of-second-hand-games-in-france.1503124/ https://www.neogaf.com/threads/steam-forced-to-authorize-the...

Shivetya 7y ago

Steam doesn't even care if the developer drops all support, they are more than willing to charge for it and not tell you that there is no support, continued development, and such. It is one reason I am loathe to buy anything on that platform. they should be required to notify you when you browse a game that it has no support.

baroffoos 7y ago
They do offer refunds for under 2 hours gameplay. This doesn't help when you have been playing for years and then it stops working but it does prevent you from buying a broken game today.
- limomium 7y ago
  Only up to a week after the purchase. Make sure to TEST every game you buy on a sale; otherwise your old, never-played but doesn't-work games are dead without refund.
  - nottorp 7y ago
    Apparently I still own Max Payne 3 because they lied in the game description that it doesn't require you to be online for single player. Three months after purchase when I got around to starting it, it was too late for a refund...
- BlueTemplar 7y ago
  Only after having lost in an Australian court relatively recently?
  - morsch 7y ago
    Steam refunds were introduced in June 2015: https://www.ign.com/articles/2015/06/02/steam-introduces-refund-system https://www.ign.com/articles/2015/06/02/steam-introduces-ref...
    - 7y ago

kova12 7y ago

But isn't like taking your Picasso and refunding you back five shillings ten pence your ancestor gave for it? For many players the game is not than just the fifty bucks they payed, it's countless hours spent with it. It's far beyond the purchase price.

nightfly 7y ago
The countless hours they've spent on it is the value the consumer has extracted from the game, not some investment to be recouped.