5 ms·

If you want to participate in profit, then you need to become capital, not labor. Labor sells itself in a competitive market. Prices will be determined by what

If you want to participate in profit, then you need to become capital, not labor. Labor sells itself in a competitive market. Prices will be determined by what other, comparable labor is offering itself for, not the value created for the company.

jimbokun 7y ago
You need to read this: https://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-programmer/ https://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-pr... If you are calling yourself and marketing yourself as "labor", you have already lost the game.
- random314 7y ago
  Last I checked, patio11 is now working as a regular employee with standard salary and benefits.
  - patio11 7y ago
    I'm constrained in my ability to talk about particular negotiations but, to the limited extent that HNers are taking direction from my life decisions, I'd advise you to assume that my negotiations do not frequently include "I consider myself basically a commodity fungible with a few hundred people you could source today and so I guess I'll take whatever the standard offer is."
    - BeyondLimits99 7y ago
      Hey Patio11, huge fan of your work :) If you don't mind me asking, how did you learn to negotiate? Any resources you could recommend?
      - james_s_tayler 7y ago
        He doesn't negotiate. He generates unreasonably large amounts of leverage and uses it against his opponents. You might be thinking "hey, wait a minute, that sounds like negotiating!". Well... You have to have something to negotiate with. So the question is how can you generate leverage?
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - mikekchar 7y ago
        Lucky for you he has written an entire blog post on the subject: https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/
    - random314 7y ago
      I have followed a lot of your work. But I cant agree with all of your advice. I have been earning several 100Ks of salary since many years at FANG companies, possibly more than you. The biggest leverage for me has been from having multiple offers and performing well enough in the technical interviews to get an offer at an appropriate level. Me thinking of myself as a unicorn/laborer played no part in it. I just don't see you highlight any aspect of this in your advice.
- toasterlovin 7y ago
  I am familiar with patio11. I would classify the lead gen system he's set up with his website as capital, not labor. Also, FWIW: of the vast multitude of ways in which programming creates value for companies, probably only a tiny minority of them lend themselves to the kind of contracting arrangement that he describes. All other programming gets done by labor. Which means that most programmers are labor. How you decide to describe yourself doesn't change that.
- maximente 7y ago
  i don't have time to read this article to get to what i infer is some discussion about capital vs. labor - it hasn't shown up a few pages into the article - so i'll just reply to what you said outside of the link. the idea that "woke labor" is non-labor is hilarious. first, this isn't possible for the vast majority of people who actually provide value to capital - you know, the people pouring coffee, or stocking shelves, etc. try being "woke" about your value at a grocery store and let me know how it goes. second, once enough of your class is "woke" you're back at square 1, trying to beat up people below you to pander to capital. (aside: this sort of "get yours and get out" is emblematic of america generally, and not flattering imo) that the game is stacked against those who labor is more of a pathological outcome of labor not being very powerful. this is a feature of capitalism, not a bug. it's a bandaid over cancer. fix the system: organize.

jimbokun 7y ago

You need to read this: https://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-programmer/ https://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-pr... If you are calling yourself and marketing yourself as "labor", you have already lost the game.

random314 7y ago
Last I checked, patio11 is now working as a regular employee with standard salary and benefits.
- patio11 7y ago
  I'm constrained in my ability to talk about particular negotiations but, to the limited extent that HNers are taking direction from my life decisions, I'd advise you to assume that my negotiations do not frequently include "I consider myself basically a commodity fungible with a few hundred people you could source today and so I guess I'll take whatever the standard offer is."
  - BeyondLimits99 7y ago
    Hey Patio11, huge fan of your work :) If you don't mind me asking, how did you learn to negotiate? Any resources you could recommend?
    - james_s_tayler 7y ago
      He doesn't negotiate. He generates unreasonably large amounts of leverage and uses it against his opponents. You might be thinking "hey, wait a minute, that sounds like negotiating!". Well... You have to have something to negotiate with. So the question is how can you generate leverage?
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - mikekchar 7y ago
      Lucky for you he has written an entire blog post on the subject: https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/
  - random314 7y ago
    I have followed a lot of your work. But I cant agree with all of your advice. I have been earning several 100Ks of salary since many years at FANG companies, possibly more than you. The biggest leverage for me has been from having multiple offers and performing well enough in the technical interviews to get an offer at an appropriate level. Me thinking of myself as a unicorn/laborer played no part in it. I just don't see you highlight any aspect of this in your advice.
toasterlovin 7y ago
I am familiar with patio11. I would classify the lead gen system he's set up with his website as capital, not labor. Also, FWIW: of the vast multitude of ways in which programming creates value for companies, probably only a tiny minority of them lend themselves to the kind of contracting arrangement that he describes. All other programming gets done by labor. Which means that most programmers are labor. How you decide to describe yourself doesn't change that.
maximente 7y ago
i don't have time to read this article to get to what i infer is some discussion about capital vs. labor - it hasn't shown up a few pages into the article - so i'll just reply to what you said outside of the link. the idea that "woke labor" is non-labor is hilarious. first, this isn't possible for the vast majority of people who actually provide value to capital - you know, the people pouring coffee, or stocking shelves, etc. try being "woke" about your value at a grocery store and let me know how it goes. second, once enough of your class is "woke" you're back at square 1, trying to beat up people below you to pander to capital. (aside: this sort of "get yours and get out" is emblematic of america generally, and not flattering imo) that the game is stacked against those who labor is more of a pathological outcome of labor not being very powerful. this is a feature of capitalism, not a bug. it's a bandaid over cancer. fix the system: organize.