5 ms·

"Any company that openly advertises remote work as a benefit is going to discount your salary." I have been working and hiring remotely for years, and that is

"Any company that openly advertises remote work as a benefit is going to discount your salary." I have been working and hiring remotely for years, and that is generally false. First, if I have a perk, I will list it. It is a competitive market for talent. This is just another tool at my disposal. Would you say that about "unlimited time off" or "generous benefits" being advertised in job posting? The same pool of money pays salaries as team outings and office beer taps, catered lunches, and other perks. On a basic level everything is zero sum. Second, as for your "across the river" example, to the extent that actually happens, that view is a bit SV-centric. For talent that wants to avoid overpriced homes and soul destroying commutes, their frame of reference is local salaries that are guided by local costs of living. As a prospective remote, I don't care if you pay +20% in SFC. I am in another place, and if you can outbid my next best offer by 10% I win. Definitely everyone should negotiate and be aware of salaries in NYC, SFC, Seattle, and DC.

samatman 7y ago
A bit of a tangent, but I don't consider "unlimited time off" a perk, at least not automatically. A guaranteed amount of time off means the company has to pay me for unused vacation if and when I depart. So for those of you who are offered unlimited time off, get a guaranteed and generous minimum, in writing. After all, if it's unlimited, they shouldn't mind putting "a minimum of four weeks a year" in writing, should they? If they won't, they're probably going to shame you into working all the time and then won't pay you for the vacation you didn't take.
- throwaway5752 7y ago
  I completely agree with you. It is a ploy to keep accrued vacation pay off the books and keep capital efficiency high. You obviously can't take 100% vacation time, so it's not unlimited. It's nice not to stress about PTO balances, though.
  - paulgb 7y ago
    Exactly. > You obviously can't take 100% vacation time, so it's not unlimited. This is the part that gets me. Everyone knows that it is limited, you just don't know what the limit is until you hit it. If vacation were truly unlimited, sure, it would be a perk. Absent that, knowing what the limit is is a perk.
    - VladimirIvanov 7y ago
      Companies where vacation time is close to zero will also say they have "unlimited." Always ask the interviewers how much vacation time they took specifically. In my experience they'll try to tell you how "someone" took 4 months of vacation but then omit the fact that no one else has taken more than 4 days and median is 0.
- BeetleB 7y ago
  > A guaranteed amount of time off means the company has to pay me for unused vacation if and when I depart. This must be a California thing. It's not generally true in most states. And in a lot of companies, even when they specify an amount, it is a "recommended" amount. My company, for example, says 3 weeks, and many managers follow this religiously. But when you read the actual rules, it says that 3 weeks is the guideline, and not a promise. This is also used as an argument against giving 4 weeks: "3 weeks is just a guideline. You can work out more if the manager agrees."
  - astura 7y ago
    Yeah, and most companies only let you accrue a certain number of hours of time off, typically somewhere between 100-200 hours from what I've seen. Once you hit that limit you simply don't get any more time off. Your boss won't let you take a vacation until next month? Too bad, sucks to be you. Thankfully the way my current company handles this is about as good as you can get - they cash out balances that are too high a couple times a year at prespecified dates.
- woutr_be 7y ago
  Where I work, we are given a generous amount of annual leave, and it's great. It ensures that you can essentially take a holiday whenever you want, and I find myself with days left towards the end of the year. The company also hardly refuses time off requests. Compare that to the startup I used to work which had an "unlimited time off" perk, it was always a struggle to get actual time off, we were always rushing to get things done, or it was a difficult time, or another engineer was already on leave, it caused more stress than anything else. I'm all for just giving a generous amount of annual leave, in my contract, with remaining days paid out.
aantix 7y ago
>As a prospective remote, I don't care if you pay +20% in SFC. I am in another place, and if you can outbid my next best offer by 10% I win. No you don't win. If you leave 100K on table, you lose. I don't want "a good salary for my area". If I'm entrusted to deliver a million dollar feature for a Bay Area company, I want the max payout for that responsibility regardless of whether I delivered it from Iowa or Vietnam. I want to have options for my family, for myself. We want to travel the world, own a home in a great neighborhood with great schools, have experiences that few others get. And you don't get those options in life with being content with "a good salary for my area" and then denying yourself coffee from Starbucks because you're still living on a budget.
- throwaway5752 7y ago
  Well, I started out by agreeing with you. For lots of reasons I won't go into, local cost of living adjustments are a bad idea and employee comp should be as flat as possible. International complications can make that tough but I'm ignoring that. But in a very fundamental way, I disagree with you. The reality is that you as a job-seeker have options and constraints when you are looking for a job. If a company isn't willing to pay you what you'd get if you were in Boston, but you aren't willing to move, then you have an impasse. If another company is will to pay that, then you take that offer. You have a set of offers and you take the best one available - not one that measures up to a hypothetical ideal. You may want things, but that is totally immaterial to an employer. It depends on how valuable your skills are and how rare they are, regardless of location.
- toasterlovin 7y ago
  If you want to participate in profit, then you need to become capital, not labor. Labor sells itself in a competitive market. Prices will be determined by what other, comparable labor is offering itself for, not the value created for the company.
  - jimbokun 7y ago
    You need to read this: https://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-programmer/ https://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-pr... If you are calling yourself and marketing yourself as "labor", you have already lost the game.
mnm1 7y ago
Unlimited time off just means no guaranteed time off. It discounts the benefits provided because it's bullshit. All time off is at the discretion of the employer so literally it's bullshit. But figuratively or symbolically it's also bullshit. Say I want to take 5 weeks off a year. It's hardly unusual or a massive amount. I bet most companies with unlimited time off would not let me. It's a ploy to hire people who are too naive to know any better. So yeah, anyone who understands this scam would say that unlimited time off is a net negative for benefits. Absolutely.

samatman 7y ago

A bit of a tangent, but I don't consider "unlimited time off" a perk, at least not automatically. A guaranteed amount of time off means the company has to pay me for unused vacation if and when I depart. So for those of you who are offered unlimited time off, get a guaranteed and generous minimum, in writing. After all, if it's unlimited, they shouldn't mind putting "a minimum of four weeks a year" in writing, should they? If they won't, they're probably going to shame you into working all the time and then won't pay you for the vacation you didn't take.

throwaway5752 7y ago
I completely agree with you. It is a ploy to keep accrued vacation pay off the books and keep capital efficiency high. You obviously can't take 100% vacation time, so it's not unlimited. It's nice not to stress about PTO balances, though.
- paulgb 7y ago
  Exactly. > You obviously can't take 100% vacation time, so it's not unlimited. This is the part that gets me. Everyone knows that it is limited, you just don't know what the limit is until you hit it. If vacation were truly unlimited, sure, it would be a perk. Absent that, knowing what the limit is is a perk.
  - VladimirIvanov 7y ago
    Companies where vacation time is close to zero will also say they have "unlimited." Always ask the interviewers how much vacation time they took specifically. In my experience they'll try to tell you how "someone" took 4 months of vacation but then omit the fact that no one else has taken more than 4 days and median is 0.
BeetleB 7y ago
> A guaranteed amount of time off means the company has to pay me for unused vacation if and when I depart. This must be a California thing. It's not generally true in most states. And in a lot of companies, even when they specify an amount, it is a "recommended" amount. My company, for example, says 3 weeks, and many managers follow this religiously. But when you read the actual rules, it says that 3 weeks is the guideline, and not a promise. This is also used as an argument against giving 4 weeks: "3 weeks is just a guideline. You can work out more if the manager agrees."
- astura 7y ago
  Yeah, and most companies only let you accrue a certain number of hours of time off, typically somewhere between 100-200 hours from what I've seen. Once you hit that limit you simply don't get any more time off. Your boss won't let you take a vacation until next month? Too bad, sucks to be you. Thankfully the way my current company handles this is about as good as you can get - they cash out balances that are too high a couple times a year at prespecified dates.
woutr_be 7y ago
Where I work, we are given a generous amount of annual leave, and it's great. It ensures that you can essentially take a holiday whenever you want, and I find myself with days left towards the end of the year. The company also hardly refuses time off requests. Compare that to the startup I used to work which had an "unlimited time off" perk, it was always a struggle to get actual time off, we were always rushing to get things done, or it was a difficult time, or another engineer was already on leave, it caused more stress than anything else. I'm all for just giving a generous amount of annual leave, in my contract, with remaining days paid out.

aantix 7y ago

>As a prospective remote, I don't care if you pay +20% in SFC. I am in another place, and if you can outbid my next best offer by 10% I win. No you don't win. If you leave 100K on table, you lose. I don't want "a good salary for my area". If I'm entrusted to deliver a million dollar feature for a Bay Area company, I want the max payout for that responsibility regardless of whether I delivered it from Iowa or Vietnam. I want to have options for my family, for myself. We want to travel the world, own a home in a great neighborhood with great schools, have experiences that few others get. And you don't get those options in life with being content with "a good salary for my area" and then denying yourself coffee from Starbucks because you're still living on a budget.

throwaway5752 7y ago
Well, I started out by agreeing with you. For lots of reasons I won't go into, local cost of living adjustments are a bad idea and employee comp should be as flat as possible. International complications can make that tough but I'm ignoring that. But in a very fundamental way, I disagree with you. The reality is that you as a job-seeker have options and constraints when you are looking for a job. If a company isn't willing to pay you what you'd get if you were in Boston, but you aren't willing to move, then you have an impasse. If another company is will to pay that, then you take that offer. You have a set of offers and you take the best one available - not one that measures up to a hypothetical ideal. You may want things, but that is totally immaterial to an employer. It depends on how valuable your skills are and how rare they are, regardless of location.
toasterlovin 7y ago
If you want to participate in profit, then you need to become capital, not labor. Labor sells itself in a competitive market. Prices will be determined by what other, comparable labor is offering itself for, not the value created for the company.
- jimbokun 7y ago
  You need to read this: https://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-programmer/ https://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-pr... If you are calling yourself and marketing yourself as "labor", you have already lost the game.

mnm1 7y ago

Unlimited time off just means no guaranteed time off. It discounts the benefits provided because it's bullshit. All time off is at the discretion of the employer so literally it's bullshit. But figuratively or symbolically it's also bullshit. Say I want to take 5 weeks off a year. It's hardly unusual or a massive amount. I bet most companies with unlimited time off would not let me. It's a ploy to hire people who are too naive to know any better. So yeah, anyone who understands this scam would say that unlimited time off is a net negative for benefits. Absolutely.