5 ms·

There is simply no contest on acceleration, ease of use and cost of ownership. In Europe gas prices alone should kick over the transition to EVs. Currently only

by serpix 7y ago

There is simply no contest on acceleration, ease of use and cost of ownership. In Europe gas prices alone should kick over the transition to EVs. Currently only basic emotions and resistance to change are holding back a flood. Human behaviour (in numbers) being like that of herd animals it only takes a few neighbors to trigger the avalanche.

mister_hn 7y ago
It's not a Matter of emotions, but where's the infrastructure, outside big cities? If you want to do a trip, you're almost in the pain and stress mode on where you can charge your vehicle. And charges take too much time at the moment. Imagine going on a EV trip from South of Spain to South of Italy. You are almost doomed
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  https://supercharge.info/map https://supercharge.info/map Scroll to Europe. Superchargers all the way from the Strait of Gibraltar to Sicily. And that’s just Tesla’s Supercharger network, not Destination chargers or other charging networks. Supercharge time is about 20 minutes.
- clouddrover 7y ago
  Okay, here's how I imagine it. Gibraltar to Siracusa in a Hyundai Kona 64kwh. Click "Plan Route" to see the route if needed: https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=c810eb38-cc04-4bb7-a77c-ff4ad8b86cd0 https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=c810eb38-cc04-4bb...
- NotSammyHagar 7y ago
  evtripplanner.com routes you through superchargers. There are an astounding number of chargers. How about from Malaga, Spain to Reggio Calabria, Italy, here's a link https://www.evtripplanner.com/planner/2-8/?id=99znsd1z https://www.evtripplanner.com/planner/2-8/?id=99znsd1z. It's astounding to see all those superchargers covering all of Europe.
  - mister_hn 7y ago
    not in every angle. Take for example the right side of Italy...there are 2/3 Superchargers only and from Foggia to Lecce there's none (and they are like ~400KM + none around) Also in Germany there's the same problem: if you see around Berlin, the capital, only one supercharger is there
    - pimeys 7y ago
      Berlin also have a huge amount of old eGolfs in the WeShare car pool platform. I've always wondered how they charge all of those cars.
    - toomuchtodo 7y ago
      https://www.plugshare.com/ https://www.plugshare.com/. Enter Berlin. Then, scroll to Italy. Superchargers aren't the only charging infrastructure in Europe.
Aaron_Putnam 7y ago
A Tesla Model 3 is a huge car in Europe. In many older cities, it simply won't fit. We need small electric runabouts. It seems like they only exist in China though.
- clouddrover 7y ago
  That's the VW triplets, isn't it? They're all low range though: - VW e-Up!: https://www.carscoops.com/2019/09/vws-updated-e-up-offers-161-mile-range-costs-less-than-its-predecessor/ https://www.carscoops.com/2019/09/vws-updated-e-up-offers-16... - SEAT Mii: https://www.seat.com/carworlds/mii-electric/overview.html https://www.seat.com/carworlds/mii-electric/overview.html - Skoda Citigo iV: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-skoda-citigo-e-iv-cost-%C2%A316955-uk https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-skoda-citigo... The Honda e's also nice (but also low range): https://www.engadget.com/2019/09/10/honda-e-electric-car-pricing/ https://www.engadget.com/2019/09/10/honda-e-electric-car-pri...
  - rusticpenn 7y ago
    These are made on the MQB platform. I'd wait for vehicles from MEB platform (ID3 etc)
72deluxe 7y ago
But the Tesla is still extremely expensive compared to most "little" cars in my UK neighbourhood (VW Up!, Toyota Yaris etc.) I see many secondhand cars here and can't understand how the 100,000 mile warranty on batteries (eg the 100,000 miles quoted by the VW ID3) will ever compete with secondhand combustion engine vehicles. For a VW Golf, a 200,000+ mile limit is "normal". I can't see how the removal of the floor to replace the batteries will ever work in practice, unless we're making all these cars with a short-sighted view of recycling?
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  It's half the cost per mile to operate an EV in the US versus an internal combustion engine. With UK/EU petrol prices, I imagine the math is even more favorable towards EVs. The battery pack is easily dropped in a Tesla, but you should expect it to last the life of the vehicle (at least 500k miles, almost 25 years at 20k miles/year of driving).
  - nroach 7y ago
    Is the CPM assertion supported by data? Does it factor in incentives at the federal level that are subject to sunset provisions? Does it include local incentives that are inconsistent when looked at across the entire US? (ie: CA vs TX) Is it utilizing a normalized cost structure for maintenance (hourly labor rate, for example) which is also highly variable geographically?
    - toomuchtodo 7y ago
      https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/fsev/costs.pdf https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/fsev/costs.pdf Data is based on cost of electricity versus cost of gasoline. EVs have only a handful of moving parts compared to internal combustion vehicles, so maintenance is less overall (battery coolant and brake fluid changes ever 2-4 years, cabin air filter every 1-2 years, tire rotations every ~6k-7.5k miles). The US is a bit dysfunctional compared to Europe (where they put a priority on shifting away from fossil fuels with subsidies and taxes); regardless, even a Tesla Model 3 without federal incentives (which finish phasing out for Tesla shortly) is still cost competitive when total cost of ownership is evaluated against most internal combustion vehicles (except hybrids).

by serpix 7y ago

mister_hn 7y ago

It's not a Matter of emotions, but where's the infrastructure, outside big cities? If you want to do a trip, you're almost in the pain and stress mode on where you can charge your vehicle. And charges take too much time at the moment. Imagine going on a EV trip from South of Spain to South of Italy. You are almost doomed

toomuchtodo 7y ago
https://supercharge.info/map https://supercharge.info/map Scroll to Europe. Superchargers all the way from the Strait of Gibraltar to Sicily. And that’s just Tesla’s Supercharger network, not Destination chargers or other charging networks. Supercharge time is about 20 minutes.
clouddrover 7y ago
Okay, here's how I imagine it. Gibraltar to Siracusa in a Hyundai Kona 64kwh. Click "Plan Route" to see the route if needed: https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=c810eb38-cc04-4bb7-a77c-ff4ad8b86cd0 https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=c810eb38-cc04-4bb...
NotSammyHagar 7y ago
evtripplanner.com routes you through superchargers. There are an astounding number of chargers. How about from Malaga, Spain to Reggio Calabria, Italy, here's a link https://www.evtripplanner.com/planner/2-8/?id=99znsd1z https://www.evtripplanner.com/planner/2-8/?id=99znsd1z. It's astounding to see all those superchargers covering all of Europe.
- mister_hn 7y ago
  not in every angle. Take for example the right side of Italy...there are 2/3 Superchargers only and from Foggia to Lecce there's none (and they are like ~400KM + none around) Also in Germany there's the same problem: if you see around Berlin, the capital, only one supercharger is there
  - pimeys 7y ago
    Berlin also have a huge amount of old eGolfs in the WeShare car pool platform. I've always wondered how they charge all of those cars.
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    https://www.plugshare.com/ https://www.plugshare.com/. Enter Berlin. Then, scroll to Italy. Superchargers aren't the only charging infrastructure in Europe.

Aaron_Putnam 7y ago

A Tesla Model 3 is a huge car in Europe. In many older cities, it simply won't fit. We need small electric runabouts. It seems like they only exist in China though.

clouddrover 7y ago
That's the VW triplets, isn't it? They're all low range though: - VW e-Up!: https://www.carscoops.com/2019/09/vws-updated-e-up-offers-161-mile-range-costs-less-than-its-predecessor/ https://www.carscoops.com/2019/09/vws-updated-e-up-offers-16... - SEAT Mii: https://www.seat.com/carworlds/mii-electric/overview.html https://www.seat.com/carworlds/mii-electric/overview.html - Skoda Citigo iV: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-skoda-citigo-e-iv-cost-%C2%A316955-uk https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-skoda-citigo... The Honda e's also nice (but also low range): https://www.engadget.com/2019/09/10/honda-e-electric-car-pricing/ https://www.engadget.com/2019/09/10/honda-e-electric-car-pri...
- rusticpenn 7y ago
  These are made on the MQB platform. I'd wait for vehicles from MEB platform (ID3 etc)

72deluxe 7y ago

But the Tesla is still extremely expensive compared to most "little" cars in my UK neighbourhood (VW Up!, Toyota Yaris etc.) I see many secondhand cars here and can't understand how the 100,000 mile warranty on batteries (eg the 100,000 miles quoted by the VW ID3) will ever compete with secondhand combustion engine vehicles. For a VW Golf, a 200,000+ mile limit is "normal". I can't see how the removal of the floor to replace the batteries will ever work in practice, unless we're making all these cars with a short-sighted view of recycling?

toomuchtodo 7y ago
It's half the cost per mile to operate an EV in the US versus an internal combustion engine. With UK/EU petrol prices, I imagine the math is even more favorable towards EVs. The battery pack is easily dropped in a Tesla, but you should expect it to last the life of the vehicle (at least 500k miles, almost 25 years at 20k miles/year of driving).
- nroach 7y ago
  Is the CPM assertion supported by data? Does it factor in incentives at the federal level that are subject to sunset provisions? Does it include local incentives that are inconsistent when looked at across the entire US? (ie: CA vs TX) Is it utilizing a normalized cost structure for maintenance (hourly labor rate, for example) which is also highly variable geographically?
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/fsev/costs.pdf https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/fsev/costs.pdf Data is based on cost of electricity versus cost of gasoline. EVs have only a handful of moving parts compared to internal combustion vehicles, so maintenance is less overall (battery coolant and brake fluid changes ever 2-4 years, cabin air filter every 1-2 years, tire rotations every ~6k-7.5k miles). The US is a bit dysfunctional compared to Europe (where they put a priority on shifting away from fossil fuels with subsidies and taxes); regardless, even a Tesla Model 3 without federal incentives (which finish phasing out for Tesla shortly) is still cost competitive when total cost of ownership is evaluated against most internal combustion vehicles (except hybrids).