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The Neues Museum claims copyright over 3D-printing files of the Nefertiti bust

103 points by rrauenza 7y ago

burnte 7y ago
Good luck with that. But it does bring up an interesting legal question as to the copyrightability of 3D scans. original 3D models should be protected by copyright, but what about scans of existing objects? Does that really count as a creative work? Especially scans of old objects like this.
- sundayedition 7y ago
  Wouldn't this be a transformation or an independent work of sorts? If I drew a sketch of the same bust, wouldn't I have the copyright to my sketch? I don't see why the 3d scan wouldn't be considered similar.
  - esrauch 7y ago
    If the 3d scan involved any creative input then it would also be protected. The sketch is understood to have your creative input applied to what you observed. Consider maps: just accurately capture reality isn't copyrightable, if they have anything that was a creative decision then they do. Maybe ironically the design and placement of the creative commons false inlay could be make the overall model copyrightable even if just the head part wasn't.
  - burnte 7y ago
    I'm not saying it wouldn't be copyrightable, but I can see how it wouldn't be. It's not transformative, in fact the idea is to get as close to a replica as possible. It could easily be described as utilitarian until it's modified, a description of facts like news, the phone book, or recipes. But let's say it's copyrightable, are we saying that the digital representation of the object is under copyright, or that specific file? That's how fonts work, the shape of the characters are not copyright protected, but the actual font file is, so I can go a recreate a font as long as I re-write it myself (and obviously don't wind up with identical file output in the end). It's a n interesting subject, personally.
  - notatoad 7y ago
    If you drew a sketch that you felt was the ultimate best sketch possible, and without seeing your sketch i drew a sketch of the same subject that i felt was the best sketch possible, we'd come up with two completely different sketches that were each our own interpretation of the original work. If you took a 3D scan, and i took a 3D scan of the same subject, barring either of us making a mistake, we'd both come up with exactly the same final result. 3D scanning is not the creation of an original work, it's a reproduction. Claiming copyright on a 3D scan is just as crazy as claiming copyright on any other reproduction. I can't rip a DVD and then claim that my ripped MKV file is an original work that i own the copyright to.
    - dpau 7y ago
      without using a 3d scanner, i can take very precise measurements by hand with a result that rivals the scan. so in that case it becomes a question of resolution or fidelity. the question is, how accurate does a reproduction need to be to violate copyright?
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - nineteen999 7y ago
        > without using a 3d scanner, i can take very precise measurements by hand Ignoring the practical part of this, which is that the Museum isn't going to let you close enough to the bust to do this. But assuming they did for a second - > with a result that rivals the scan The linked scan contains nearly 6.5 million tesselated polygons, and surface color data in Ptex format. You are not going to be able to get within cooee of that. Any hand measured copy is going to qualify as an artists interpretation and would not violate copyright I should think.
        dpau 7y ago
        of course. it's a thought experiment. theoretically given enough time and extremely precise instruments it would be possible to get measurements close enough. so the question remains- is this really an issue of "artistic interpretation" or just accuracy?
- incompatible 7y ago
  Real-world objects are generally not copyrightable, unless they fall into one of the categories in which copyright law defines, such as sculptures, buildings, and "works of artistic craftmanship". If it's just a rock, or a mass-produced car part, it's unlikely to be copyrightable. Hence it would follow, at least to me, that a mechanical 3D scan of the object wouldn't be copyrightable either, since it has no originality.
  - perl4ever 7y ago
    A brief search suggests that the shape of a car is copyrightable, but only to the extent that it isn't dictated by function. https://ccbjournal.com/articles/automobile-designs-protecting-investment-legend-intellectual-property https://ccbjournal.com/articles/automobile-designs-protectin...
web007 7y ago
The "original" scan has been available since at least late 2015, https://web.archive.org/web/20151229174934/http://nefertitihack.alloversky.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20151229174934/http://nefertitih...
chabes 7y ago
The last paragraph sums up pretty concisely why the actions taken by the museum are inappropriate: museums are not gatekeepers of culture, but stewards of culture. > The most important part is that adding these restrictions runs counter to the entire mission of museums. Museums do not hold our shared cultural heritage so that they can become gatekeepers. They hold our shared cultural heritage as stewards in order to make sure we have access to our collective history.
- keenmaster 7y ago
  It would be glorious if an ethnic Egyptian publicly distributes the Nefertiti scan and solicits a copyright claim. The Neues museum really has it coming. They shouldn’t even have the bust. Their sense of entitlement is shocking. What bothers me more is the Royal Museum for Central Africa in Belgium. Belgian King Leopold II ravaged modern day DRC and perpetrated a genocide there. Belgium pilfered Congo’s treasure and brutally enslaved its people. Yet, the treasure is still in a Belgian museum, the same museum that used to have a “human zoo,” displaying the conquered people like pets. The museum is reinventing itself, but its mere existence is insulting. They should return the treasure, dedicate most of the museum to Congo Genocide remembrance, and forward all revenues to NGOs and infrastructure projects in the DRC.
  - zakki 7y ago
    This happened to all treasures owned by the country that got colonized. Some of the treasures probably were taken legally (I.e. given as a gifts before colonization happened).
    - eecc 7y ago
      Italy returned the Axum Obelisk. Yes it happens, yes amendments can be made.
  - StavrosK 7y ago
    Do you have details on the human zoo? That has got to be right up there in the list of shitty things people have done.
JorgeGT 7y ago
While the museum motivations are quite shady, this is the first time I see the CC-BY-NC-SA license being described as "legally meaningless lawyer language", "scary" and "giant keep out sign". FWIW, I saw plenty of people taking photos of the bust anyway...
- bhickey 7y ago
  Re-read it. The author isn't describing CC-BY-NC-SA as meaningless. He's describing its use by Neues as legally meaningless because Neues doesn't have an enforceable copyright to the bust or scans of the bust.
  - lima 7y ago
    He describes it as "scary language" and a "giant “keep out” sign", which is FUD that does accurately represent the CC-BY-NC-SA license.
- detaro 7y ago
  I don't think that's what they're saying (they're saying slapping a CC license on a work you can't/shouldn't be able to hold a copyright on that would give you the right to attach a license to is meaningless), but the CC-NC provision is often criticized for being quite unclear and a risk.
kaffeemitsahne 7y ago
But why?
coldtea 7y ago
Museums stuffed to the brims with artifacts taken from all the peoples of the world, downright stolen or bought for a penny under colonial occupation pretend they have any more standing to copyright them...
- lima 7y ago
  They are preserving and restoring those artifacts, and making them available to scientific research. It's more nuanced than that.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    When an artifact is not yours, it doens't matter if you "preserve it". The country they stole it from could preserve it too.
awinter-py 7y ago
> The scary language has real-world consequences. These 3D scans could be used by people who want to 3D-print a replica for a classroom, integrate the 3D model into an art piece, or allow people to hold the piece in a virtual reality world. Partial reuse for art & photocopy for classroom are areas where people have traditionally ignored copyright and been fine. The question of copyright in a historical scan is I guess an important question but not for these reasons. More relevant case might be a rival museum setting up a gallery of 3d prints of scans. I'm not an expert but the law here is probably unclear -- I think the author of this article is blurring the difference between copyright of the sculpture and copyright of the scan. These scans are hard to make. Someone who drew a picture of the sculpture could assert copyright over the drawing (as other comments here point out). Also, the sculpture itself may be copyrighted if significant restoration work went into it.
- PostOnce 7y ago
  > Also, the sculpture itself may be copyrighted if significant restoration work went into it. If I restore something to it's original state, I'm just copying the artist, not creating my own art. Wouldn't any claim to copyright on that original work lie with the long-dead creator?
  - awinter-py 7y ago
    Counter-example -- a dinosaur skeleton where a significant amount of creative reconstruction goes into arranging the thing and posing it. This is a mix of art and science because you're using paleontological clues about gait etc combined with visual sense.
    - dredmorbius 7y ago
      Is such preservation or reconstruction "an original work of authorship" (17 USC 102(a)), though? Because it seems that many such interpretations (including the Neues Museum's, though that at least has a credible claim to not be strictly governed by US law) have less to do with copyright and original authorship, and more with the capacity for an empowered extant gatekeeper to continue gatekeeping under colour of law.
Confiks 7y ago
You can see this kind of behavior with many museums and cultural institutions. For example with the Van Gogh museum in The Netherlands. They warn you explicitly that you may not use images of Van Gogh paintings for commercial purposes or in a size larger than A4. For example when you try to download De aardappeleters [1], you'll meet these two [2][3] documents with terms and conditions. When I pressed them on this considering the supreme court decision Van Dale/Romme [4] (which is very similar to Bridgeman Art Library v. Corel Corp. [5]), they responded with the following: "First of all the Supreme Court decision in Van Dale/Romme is not about photographs but about a collection of factual data. In this decision the Supreme Court determined when a work is protected by copyright. In our opinion the photographs that we offer on our website do comply with these criteria. The photographer had to make creative decisions in repect of lighting, illumination time, shutter speed, distance, angle etc." "Secondly, the photographs are our property. We have invested in the making of these photograhps. Since the photographs are our property, we can decide when and how the photographs are used and by whom. We can set the terms and conditions. If you order photographs from our website, you are bound by our terms and conditions. If your use of the photographs violates these terms and conditions, you will be in breach of contract and we are entitled to take legal action." "You or your client are free to make products with the paintings of the painter Van Gogh, but if you would choose to do so with our high res photographs and therefore want to profit from our efforts and investments you will have to comply with our terms and conditions. If you do not want to pay the requested compensation for the use of the photographs, we suggest you use some other pictures or photographs." "Please note that our museum has to be self-sufficient. The exploitation costs of an art institute like the Van Gogh Museum are considerable and all our income is invested in the exploitation of the museum. The compensations we ask for the use of our photographs help us to keep the museum up and running." They seem to admit that anyone would be free to make (high-resolution) copies of Van Gogh paintings, while at the same time claiming that they own the copyright on the high-resolution images files that they created and sell. [1] https://www.vangoghmuseum.nl/en/collection/s0005V1962 https://www.vangoghmuseum.nl/en/collection/s0005V1962 [2] https://cdn.vangoghmuseum.nl/1/4/1791/1/beyXX73TgUY8hhFrzwKg5QomRGxlmutuAqycoEXjhKG-8BUeXXSpNlcWDJpN7SSL https://cdn.vangoghmuseum.nl/1/4/1791/1/beyXX73TgUY8hhFrzwKg... [3] https://www.vangoghmuseum.nl/download/71396fdf-e8ce-4b37-90e8-649d458f915f.pdf https://www.vangoghmuseum.nl/download/71396fdf-e8ce-4b37-90e... [4] https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrest_Van_Dale/Romme https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrest_Van_Dale/Romme [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridgeman_Art_Library_v._Corel_Corp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridgeman_Art_Library_v._Corel....
Animats 7y ago
This is mostly huffing and puffing by museums. In the US, this was settled in Bridgeman vs. Corel, in 1999, and reinforced by Meshwerks vs. Toyota, which extended that to 3D scans. This is effectively settled law. The best demonstration of this is that Wikipedia operates on the principle that scans of public domain art can be included in Wikipedia, and the Wikimedia Foundation is willing to go to court over that. The National Portrait Gallery in the UK did start a lawsuit once, but backed down. After 20 years, no claim of copyright on a copy of a public domain image seems to have gone anywhere in court.
- nkurz 7y ago
  Thanks, unlike the linked article, this argument gets at the core of the matter: if the scan was not an artistic creation, it is not eligible for copyright protection. Here's a summary of Meshworks v Toyota: https://www.intellectualpropertylawblog.com/archives/meshworks-inc-v-toyota-motor-sales-u-s-a-good-news-and-bad-news-for-creators-of-new-media-works https://www.intellectualpropertylawblog.com/archives/meshwor... Interestingly, I wonder if you could make the argument that the "illicit trench coat scanning" would have been an artistic creation falling under copyright, but a higher grade commercial scan (as this now appears to be) does not. It thus makes me wonder if this might have been part of the reason for the cover story. Are there more exact cases where a court has ruled that a 3D scan is not artistic? I've been surprised how low the threshold seems to be for photographic works, with "cropping" sometimes seeming to qualify. I wouldn't find it impossible for a court to decide that human decisions on how the raw model was cleaned up might deserve similar consideration. But you seem confident that they will not?
- bjelkeman-again 7y ago
  In Sweden the highest court ruled that the distribution of photographs of public art is a breach of copyright. Wikimedia got sued and lost. https://blog.wikimedia.org/2017/07/25/wikimedia-sweden-freedom-panorama/ https://blog.wikimedia.org/2017/07/25/wikimedia-sweden-freed...
  - tastroder 7y ago
    In Germany, the country in question here, the current stance of the federal supreme court (links to Wikipedia case below, ruling is dated 12/2018) seems to be that even photography of public domain works can retain copyright with the museum. To be clear, I find both that stance and the behaviour of the organisation behind the museum appaling but I'm really not sure how US copyright law or unrealized EU directives are all that relevant. Intellectual property rights in Germany are complicated and when in doubt usually err on the side of copyright holders. http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2019/02/digitized-images-of-works-in-public_19.html?m=1 http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2019/02/digitized-images-of-wor... https://dejure.org/dienste/vernetzung/rechtsprechung?Text=I%20ZR%20104/17 https://dejure.org/dienste/vernetzung/rechtsprechung?Text=I%...
marcus_holmes 7y ago
I'm confused. We think that photographers ("2d-scanners"?) deserve the copyright to their photos of public-domain objects, but "3d-scanners" don't? What's the reasoning for that?
- kchamplewski 7y ago
  Photographers don't automatically gain copyright of a photo by virtue of it being a photo - they gain copyright when they create what the law considers a copyrightable work. In practice, most photos involve creating or capturing a scene in a unique or new way, and this adds something new sufficient to make the photograph a new work and hence subject to copyright. The act of photographing a public domain painting in such a way that you just reproduce the painting and add nothing new, however, doesn't necessarily create a new work - it may instead count as a reproduction of that original work and hence subject to the original work's copyright, as no new copyrightable material is added. There is a bit of a grey area in that if I say, arrange a whole bunch of public domain art in a particular way and photograph it, I could quite reasonably argue that my arrangement itself consists of a work and so my photographs are subject to copyright. Similarly if I parody or otherwise transform a public domain work, I can assert that my work is copyrightable as it is transformative. This 3D scan doesn't fall into this area however since the scan was clearly intended to reproduce the original work, as opposed to create a new copyrightable work.
  - perl4ever 7y ago
    As far as I know, 3d scanning is not a matter of just pushing a button on a device, whereas a photo can be, so the presumption ought to be that the former involves more creativity than the simplest example of the latter.
    - nitrogen 7y ago
      Tedious work and creativity are completely orthogonal.
      - 7y ago
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jacquesm 7y ago
Any museum that stands in the way of distribution of copies of those objects that it is at present steward of is failing its own mission statement.
njharman 7y ago
"Life of author + 3,000 years. Sure np, get right on that" -- Disney lawyer
peglasaurus 7y ago
So they claim copyright? So they can prove they own it? Where did it come from? Who exactly is the craftsman who made it? Can I see complete documentation? I’ll be expecting a complete transfer history or the current ownership claim is invalid. No uncertainty allowed, names, dates and place of origin please. Do they still want copyright if they can’t even show complete chain of creation to their current ownership? How about certification that shows legal transfer of the item from the original craftsman to the current holders lawful possession? Obviously these are farcical questions but the museums answers are likely not to be so laughable or ridiculous. Quite a lot of their answers will show they don’t actually own the item - they just have it. For now. In reality the museum is just the current holder of something that was probably actually stolen. A thief can’t claim much of anything can they? Perhaps the museum should clarify its exact claim so that no others can challenge them. And “because we’ve had it for awhile” doesn’t count. Maybe the museum should not only admit they don’t have copyright but that in a very real way they shouldn’t even have it to begin with.
- detaro 7y ago
  No, they do not claim copyright over the physical bust.
  - peglasaurus 7y ago
    I'm fairly sure if they could they would. The article said they actively blocked others from even taking photos. "The museum has long prohibited visitors from taking any kinds of photographs of its biggest attraction." So they are asserting copyright of the work in the sense they are restricting access. Their only real reasonable excuse might be that flash photography is likely to damage the work but non-flash photography should still be allowed. They've got history of blocking all such access.
    - perl4ever 7y ago
      I was in a museum that said photography is forbidden because of the fragility of the objects in a particular exhibit. I thought it was weird/amusing that it had no indication (even in an icon or something) of flash photography being the problem.
buboard 7y ago
Copyright for a piece of art stolen from Thutmose's worshop, 3000 years later. Great job
calibas 7y ago
I once tried to work with the Oakland Museum of California to digitize some paintings of theirs that were in the public domain. I figured they'd be happy to share since a museum is supposed to be about spreading art and culture, I was surprised when they were quite resistant to the idea. They weren't allowing people to take high quality photos. I just wanted to put them up on Wikimedia Commons, but I got the impression the museum didn't want any competition from anyone.
onetimemanytime 7y ago
Devil's advocate: Can they claim ownership of the 3-d scan and work derived from it? They are the ones that scanned it with that much detail
- ant6n 7y ago
  I thought that was a rogue operation
mikhailfranco 7y ago
The copying of ancient artifacts predates 3D scanning and printing. The V&A Museum has a huge hall called the Cast Court, which displays 3D reconstructions of statues and architecture made using plaster casts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast_Courts_(Victoria_and_Albert_Museum) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast_Courts_(Victoria_and_Albe... https://www.vam.ac.uk/collections/cast-collection https://www.vam.ac.uk/collections/cast-collection The most famous copy is probably Michelangelo's David: https://www.vam.ac.uk/articles/the-story-of-michelangelos-david https://www.vam.ac.uk/articles/the-story-of-michelangelos-da... But the largest example is from Trajan's Column in Rome, which is so tall it is reproduced in two sections: https://www.vam.ac.uk/articles/trajans-column https://www.vam.ac.uk/articles/trajans-column
bitL 7y ago
Museums are broke, this might be a calculated marketing stunt to attract more visitors. Negative news is better than no news...
lima 7y ago
Basically, the museum's defenses are: 1. In Germany, photographs of public-domain art are copyrightable. They assert that this extends to 3D scans, which are similar in nature, and that the scans are not in the public domain. The situation on this is very clear in the US (copies of public domain art are always public domain), but not so in Germany, where no such law exists. Article 14 of the new EU Copyright Directive will fix this, but this has not yet made its way into German law. EU Directives are basically templates for national law, but are not laws themselves, and the process can and usually does take years. The article mentions that it's not yet implemented, but then goes on to claim that the institution might commit "copy fraud", which cannot be the case if it's not yet the law. Perhaps this is why the museum caved in so quickly? 2. Most German institutions that are funded by tax payer money have an obligation to generate profits where they can, to reduce the taxpayer burden. They cite an example of €2M of profits from their commercial picture licensing deals. Without being able to copyright their pictures, this would be taxpayer money spent, or a cut in funding. Obviously, there's an argument to be made that this would be a very good use of taxpayer money, but it's a valid point to make. The foundation is a non-profit entity - any money they make will go towards conservation efforts. There are other similar examples - the German national weather service does not make its high-resolution Cosmo-D2 weather model available for free, and neither does the national land survey office publish all of its maps or its millimeter-resolution AGPS data feed for free. The reason is that those are worth a lot of money to commercial weather forecasting services or survey companies and licensing the data funds the data collection efforts. The weather service (DWD) actually used to publish its high-resolution weather forecast for free as a smartphone app (DWD WarnWetter) and got sued by a free ad-supported online weather service (WetterOnline) on antitrust grounds and was forced to discontinue its free service - this lawsuit is still going on[1]. > The scary language has real-world consequences. These 3D scans could be used by people who want to 3D-print a replica for a classroom, integrate the 3D model into an art piece, or allow people to hold the piece in a virtual reality world. The Creative Commons license in question is widely used and not scary at all - many artists use it themselves, and given how widespread and accepted it is, it's the exact opposite of a "keep out" sign. Very interesting situation, and great work by the activist who made it happen and the German professor supporting him. The article could have used a little less exaggeration. Personally, as a German tax payer, I'm happy about my tax money being put to good use by making such copies public domain in the future, and I hope that the new law will not deter such 3D scanning efforts in the future. [1]: http://juris.bundesgerichtshof.de/cgi-bin/rechtsprechung/document.py?Gericht=bgh&Art=pm&pm_nummer=0039/19 http://juris.bundesgerichtshof.de/cgi-bin/rechtsprechung/doc...

103 points by rrauenza 7y ago

Good luck with that. But it does bring up an interesting legal question as to the copyrightability of 3D scans. original 3D models should be protected by copyright, but what about scans of existing objects? Does that really count as a creative work? Especially scans of old objects like this.

sundayedition 7y ago
Wouldn't this be a transformation or an independent work of sorts? If I drew a sketch of the same bust, wouldn't I have the copyright to my sketch? I don't see why the 3d scan wouldn't be considered similar.
- esrauch 7y ago
  If the 3d scan involved any creative input then it would also be protected. The sketch is understood to have your creative input applied to what you observed. Consider maps: just accurately capture reality isn't copyrightable, if they have anything that was a creative decision then they do. Maybe ironically the design and placement of the creative commons false inlay could be make the overall model copyrightable even if just the head part wasn't.
- burnte 7y ago
  I'm not saying it wouldn't be copyrightable, but I can see how it wouldn't be. It's not transformative, in fact the idea is to get as close to a replica as possible. It could easily be described as utilitarian until it's modified, a description of facts like news, the phone book, or recipes. But let's say it's copyrightable, are we saying that the digital representation of the object is under copyright, or that specific file? That's how fonts work, the shape of the characters are not copyright protected, but the actual font file is, so I can go a recreate a font as long as I re-write it myself (and obviously don't wind up with identical file output in the end). It's a n interesting subject, personally.
- notatoad 7y ago
  If you drew a sketch that you felt was the ultimate best sketch possible, and without seeing your sketch i drew a sketch of the same subject that i felt was the best sketch possible, we'd come up with two completely different sketches that were each our own interpretation of the original work. If you took a 3D scan, and i took a 3D scan of the same subject, barring either of us making a mistake, we'd both come up with exactly the same final result. 3D scanning is not the creation of an original work, it's a reproduction. Claiming copyright on a 3D scan is just as crazy as claiming copyright on any other reproduction. I can't rip a DVD and then claim that my ripped MKV file is an original work that i own the copyright to.
  - dpau 7y ago
    without using a 3d scanner, i can take very precise measurements by hand with a result that rivals the scan. so in that case it becomes a question of resolution or fidelity. the question is, how accurate does a reproduction need to be to violate copyright?
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - nineteen999 7y ago
      > without using a 3d scanner, i can take very precise measurements by hand Ignoring the practical part of this, which is that the Museum isn't going to let you close enough to the bust to do this. But assuming they did for a second - > with a result that rivals the scan The linked scan contains nearly 6.5 million tesselated polygons, and surface color data in Ptex format. You are not going to be able to get within cooee of that. Any hand measured copy is going to qualify as an artists interpretation and would not violate copyright I should think.
      - dpau 7y ago
        of course. it's a thought experiment. theoretically given enough time and extremely precise instruments it would be possible to get measurements close enough. so the question remains- is this really an issue of "artistic interpretation" or just accuracy?
incompatible 7y ago
Real-world objects are generally not copyrightable, unless they fall into one of the categories in which copyright law defines, such as sculptures, buildings, and "works of artistic craftmanship". If it's just a rock, or a mass-produced car part, it's unlikely to be copyrightable. Hence it would follow, at least to me, that a mechanical 3D scan of the object wouldn't be copyrightable either, since it has no originality.
- perl4ever 7y ago
  A brief search suggests that the shape of a car is copyrightable, but only to the extent that it isn't dictated by function. https://ccbjournal.com/articles/automobile-designs-protecting-investment-legend-intellectual-property https://ccbjournal.com/articles/automobile-designs-protectin...

web007 7y ago

The "original" scan has been available since at least late 2015, https://web.archive.org/web/20151229174934/http://nefertitihack.alloversky.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20151229174934/http://nefertitih...

chabes 7y ago

The last paragraph sums up pretty concisely why the actions taken by the museum are inappropriate: museums are not gatekeepers of culture, but stewards of culture. > The most important part is that adding these restrictions runs counter to the entire mission of museums. Museums do not hold our shared cultural heritage so that they can become gatekeepers. They hold our shared cultural heritage as stewards in order to make sure we have access to our collective history.

keenmaster 7y ago
It would be glorious if an ethnic Egyptian publicly distributes the Nefertiti scan and solicits a copyright claim. The Neues museum really has it coming. They shouldn’t even have the bust. Their sense of entitlement is shocking. What bothers me more is the Royal Museum for Central Africa in Belgium. Belgian King Leopold II ravaged modern day DRC and perpetrated a genocide there. Belgium pilfered Congo’s treasure and brutally enslaved its people. Yet, the treasure is still in a Belgian museum, the same museum that used to have a “human zoo,” displaying the conquered people like pets. The museum is reinventing itself, but its mere existence is insulting. They should return the treasure, dedicate most of the museum to Congo Genocide remembrance, and forward all revenues to NGOs and infrastructure projects in the DRC.
- zakki 7y ago
  This happened to all treasures owned by the country that got colonized. Some of the treasures probably were taken legally (I.e. given as a gifts before colonization happened).
  - eecc 7y ago
    Italy returned the Axum Obelisk. Yes it happens, yes amendments can be made.
- StavrosK 7y ago
  Do you have details on the human zoo? That has got to be right up there in the list of shitty things people have done.

JorgeGT 7y ago

While the museum motivations are quite shady, this is the first time I see the CC-BY-NC-SA license being described as "legally meaningless lawyer language", "scary" and "giant keep out sign". FWIW, I saw plenty of people taking photos of the bust anyway...

bhickey 7y ago
Re-read it. The author isn't describing CC-BY-NC-SA as meaningless. He's describing its use by Neues as legally meaningless because Neues doesn't have an enforceable copyright to the bust or scans of the bust.
- lima 7y ago
  He describes it as "scary language" and a "giant “keep out” sign", which is FUD that does accurately represent the CC-BY-NC-SA license.
detaro 7y ago
I don't think that's what they're saying (they're saying slapping a CC license on a work you can't/shouldn't be able to hold a copyright on that would give you the right to attach a license to is meaningless), but the CC-NC provision is often criticized for being quite unclear and a risk.

kaffeemitsahne 7y ago

But why?

coldtea 7y ago

Museums stuffed to the brims with artifacts taken from all the peoples of the world, downright stolen or bought for a penny under colonial occupation pretend they have any more standing to copyright them...

lima 7y ago
They are preserving and restoring those artifacts, and making them available to scientific research. It's more nuanced than that.
- coldtea 7y ago
  When an artifact is not yours, it doens't matter if you "preserve it". The country they stole it from could preserve it too.

awinter-py 7y ago

> The scary language has real-world consequences. These 3D scans could be used by people who want to 3D-print a replica for a classroom, integrate the 3D model into an art piece, or allow people to hold the piece in a virtual reality world. Partial reuse for art & photocopy for classroom are areas where people have traditionally ignored copyright and been fine. The question of copyright in a historical scan is I guess an important question but not for these reasons. More relevant case might be a rival museum setting up a gallery of 3d prints of scans. I'm not an expert but the law here is probably unclear -- I think the author of this article is blurring the difference between copyright of the sculpture and copyright of the scan. These scans are hard to make. Someone who drew a picture of the sculpture could assert copyright over the drawing (as other comments here point out). Also, the sculpture itself may be copyrighted if significant restoration work went into it.

PostOnce 7y ago
> Also, the sculpture itself may be copyrighted if significant restoration work went into it. If I restore something to it's original state, I'm just copying the artist, not creating my own art. Wouldn't any claim to copyright on that original work lie with the long-dead creator?
- awinter-py 7y ago
  Counter-example -- a dinosaur skeleton where a significant amount of creative reconstruction goes into arranging the thing and posing it. This is a mix of art and science because you're using paleontological clues about gait etc combined with visual sense.
  - dredmorbius 7y ago
    Is such preservation or reconstruction "an original work of authorship" (17 USC 102(a)), though? Because it seems that many such interpretations (including the Neues Museum's, though that at least has a credible claim to not be strictly governed by US law) have less to do with copyright and original authorship, and more with the capacity for an empowered extant gatekeeper to continue gatekeeping under colour of law.

Confiks 7y ago

You can see this kind of behavior with many museums and cultural institutions. For example with the Van Gogh museum in The Netherlands. They warn you explicitly that you may not use images of Van Gogh paintings for commercial purposes or in a size larger than A4. For example when you try to download De aardappeleters [1], you'll meet these two [2][3] documents with terms and conditions. When I pressed them on this considering the supreme court decision Van Dale/Romme [4] (which is very similar to Bridgeman Art Library v. Corel Corp. [5]), they responded with the following: "First of all the Supreme Court decision in Van Dale/Romme is not about photographs but about a collection of factual data. In this decision the Supreme Court determined when a work is protected by copyright. In our opinion the photographs that we offer on our website do comply with these criteria. The photographer had to make creative decisions in repect of lighting, illumination time, shutter speed, distance, angle etc." "Secondly, the photographs are our property. We have invested in the making of these photograhps. Since the photographs are our property, we can decide when and how the photographs are used and by whom. We can set the terms and conditions. If you order photographs from our website, you are bound by our terms and conditions. If your use of the photographs violates these terms and conditions, you will be in breach of contract and we are entitled to take legal action." "You or your client are free to make products with the paintings of the painter Van Gogh, but if you would choose to do so with our high res photographs and therefore want to profit from our efforts and investments you will have to comply with our terms and conditions. If you do not want to pay the requested compensation for the use of the photographs, we suggest you use some other pictures or photographs." "Please note that our museum has to be self-sufficient. The exploitation costs of an art institute like the Van Gogh Museum are considerable and all our income is invested in the exploitation of the museum. The compensations we ask for the use of our photographs help us to keep the museum up and running." They seem to admit that anyone would be free to make (high-resolution) copies of Van Gogh paintings, while at the same time claiming that they own the copyright on the high-resolution images files that they created and sell. [1] https://www.vangoghmuseum.nl/en/collection/s0005V1962 https://www.vangoghmuseum.nl/en/collection/s0005V1962 [2] https://cdn.vangoghmuseum.nl/1/4/1791/1/beyXX73TgUY8hhFrzwKg5QomRGxlmutuAqycoEXjhKG-8BUeXXSpNlcWDJpN7SSL https://cdn.vangoghmuseum.nl/1/4/1791/1/beyXX73TgUY8hhFrzwKg... [3] https://www.vangoghmuseum.nl/download/71396fdf-e8ce-4b37-90e8-649d458f915f.pdf https://www.vangoghmuseum.nl/download/71396fdf-e8ce-4b37-90e... [4] https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrest_Van_Dale/Romme https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrest_Van_Dale/Romme [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridgeman_Art_Library_v._Corel_Corp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridgeman_Art_Library_v._Corel....

Animats 7y ago

This is mostly huffing and puffing by museums. In the US, this was settled in Bridgeman vs. Corel, in 1999, and reinforced by Meshwerks vs. Toyota, which extended that to 3D scans. This is effectively settled law. The best demonstration of this is that Wikipedia operates on the principle that scans of public domain art can be included in Wikipedia, and the Wikimedia Foundation is willing to go to court over that. The National Portrait Gallery in the UK did start a lawsuit once, but backed down. After 20 years, no claim of copyright on a copy of a public domain image seems to have gone anywhere in court.

nkurz 7y ago
Thanks, unlike the linked article, this argument gets at the core of the matter: if the scan was not an artistic creation, it is not eligible for copyright protection. Here's a summary of Meshworks v Toyota: https://www.intellectualpropertylawblog.com/archives/meshworks-inc-v-toyota-motor-sales-u-s-a-good-news-and-bad-news-for-creators-of-new-media-works https://www.intellectualpropertylawblog.com/archives/meshwor... Interestingly, I wonder if you could make the argument that the "illicit trench coat scanning" would have been an artistic creation falling under copyright, but a higher grade commercial scan (as this now appears to be) does not. It thus makes me wonder if this might have been part of the reason for the cover story. Are there more exact cases where a court has ruled that a 3D scan is not artistic? I've been surprised how low the threshold seems to be for photographic works, with "cropping" sometimes seeming to qualify. I wouldn't find it impossible for a court to decide that human decisions on how the raw model was cleaned up might deserve similar consideration. But you seem confident that they will not?
bjelkeman-again 7y ago
In Sweden the highest court ruled that the distribution of photographs of public art is a breach of copyright. Wikimedia got sued and lost. https://blog.wikimedia.org/2017/07/25/wikimedia-sweden-freedom-panorama/ https://blog.wikimedia.org/2017/07/25/wikimedia-sweden-freed...
- tastroder 7y ago
  In Germany, the country in question here, the current stance of the federal supreme court (links to Wikipedia case below, ruling is dated 12/2018) seems to be that even photography of public domain works can retain copyright with the museum. To be clear, I find both that stance and the behaviour of the organisation behind the museum appaling but I'm really not sure how US copyright law or unrealized EU directives are all that relevant. Intellectual property rights in Germany are complicated and when in doubt usually err on the side of copyright holders. http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2019/02/digitized-images-of-works-in-public_19.html?m=1 http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2019/02/digitized-images-of-wor... https://dejure.org/dienste/vernetzung/rechtsprechung?Text=I%20ZR%20104/17 https://dejure.org/dienste/vernetzung/rechtsprechung?Text=I%...

marcus_holmes 7y ago

I'm confused. We think that photographers ("2d-scanners"?) deserve the copyright to their photos of public-domain objects, but "3d-scanners" don't? What's the reasoning for that?

kchamplewski 7y ago
Photographers don't automatically gain copyright of a photo by virtue of it being a photo - they gain copyright when they create what the law considers a copyrightable work. In practice, most photos involve creating or capturing a scene in a unique or new way, and this adds something new sufficient to make the photograph a new work and hence subject to copyright. The act of photographing a public domain painting in such a way that you just reproduce the painting and add nothing new, however, doesn't necessarily create a new work - it may instead count as a reproduction of that original work and hence subject to the original work's copyright, as no new copyrightable material is added. There is a bit of a grey area in that if I say, arrange a whole bunch of public domain art in a particular way and photograph it, I could quite reasonably argue that my arrangement itself consists of a work and so my photographs are subject to copyright. Similarly if I parody or otherwise transform a public domain work, I can assert that my work is copyrightable as it is transformative. This 3D scan doesn't fall into this area however since the scan was clearly intended to reproduce the original work, as opposed to create a new copyrightable work.
- perl4ever 7y ago
  As far as I know, 3d scanning is not a matter of just pushing a button on a device, whereas a photo can be, so the presumption ought to be that the former involves more creativity than the simplest example of the latter.
  - nitrogen 7y ago
    Tedious work and creativity are completely orthogonal.
    - 7y ago

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jacquesm 7y ago

Any museum that stands in the way of distribution of copies of those objects that it is at present steward of is failing its own mission statement.

njharman 7y ago

"Life of author + 3,000 years. Sure np, get right on that" -- Disney lawyer

peglasaurus 7y ago

So they claim copyright? So they can prove they own it? Where did it come from? Who exactly is the craftsman who made it? Can I see complete documentation? I’ll be expecting a complete transfer history or the current ownership claim is invalid. No uncertainty allowed, names, dates and place of origin please. Do they still want copyright if they can’t even show complete chain of creation to their current ownership? How about certification that shows legal transfer of the item from the original craftsman to the current holders lawful possession? Obviously these are farcical questions but the museums answers are likely not to be so laughable or ridiculous. Quite a lot of their answers will show they don’t actually own the item - they just have it. For now. In reality the museum is just the current holder of something that was probably actually stolen. A thief can’t claim much of anything can they? Perhaps the museum should clarify its exact claim so that no others can challenge them. And “because we’ve had it for awhile” doesn’t count. Maybe the museum should not only admit they don’t have copyright but that in a very real way they shouldn’t even have it to begin with.

detaro 7y ago
No, they do not claim copyright over the physical bust.
- peglasaurus 7y ago
  I'm fairly sure if they could they would. The article said they actively blocked others from even taking photos. "The museum has long prohibited visitors from taking any kinds of photographs of its biggest attraction." So they are asserting copyright of the work in the sense they are restricting access. Their only real reasonable excuse might be that flash photography is likely to damage the work but non-flash photography should still be allowed. They've got history of blocking all such access.
  - perl4ever 7y ago
    I was in a museum that said photography is forbidden because of the fragility of the objects in a particular exhibit. I thought it was weird/amusing that it had no indication (even in an icon or something) of flash photography being the problem.

buboard 7y ago

calibas 7y ago

I once tried to work with the Oakland Museum of California to digitize some paintings of theirs that were in the public domain. I figured they'd be happy to share since a museum is supposed to be about spreading art and culture, I was surprised when they were quite resistant to the idea. They weren't allowing people to take high quality photos. I just wanted to put them up on Wikimedia Commons, but I got the impression the museum didn't want any competition from anyone.

onetimemanytime 7y ago

Devil's advocate: Can they claim ownership of the 3-d scan and work derived from it? They are the ones that scanned it with that much detail

ant6n 7y ago
I thought that was a rogue operation

mikhailfranco 7y ago

The copying of ancient artifacts predates 3D scanning and printing. The V&A Museum has a huge hall called the Cast Court, which displays 3D reconstructions of statues and architecture made using plaster casts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast_Courts_(Victoria_and_Albert_Museum) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast_Courts_(Victoria_and_Albe... https://www.vam.ac.uk/collections/cast-collection https://www.vam.ac.uk/collections/cast-collection The most famous copy is probably Michelangelo's David: https://www.vam.ac.uk/articles/the-story-of-michelangelos-david https://www.vam.ac.uk/articles/the-story-of-michelangelos-da... But the largest example is from Trajan's Column in Rome, which is so tall it is reproduced in two sections: https://www.vam.ac.uk/articles/trajans-column https://www.vam.ac.uk/articles/trajans-column

bitL 7y ago

Museums are broke, this might be a calculated marketing stunt to attract more visitors. Negative news is better than no news...

lima 7y ago

Basically, the museum's defenses are: 1. In Germany, photographs of public-domain art are copyrightable. They assert that this extends to 3D scans, which are similar in nature, and that the scans are not in the public domain. The situation on this is very clear in the US (copies of public domain art are always public domain), but not so in Germany, where no such law exists. Article 14 of the new EU Copyright Directive will fix this, but this has not yet made its way into German law. EU Directives are basically templates for national law, but are not laws themselves, and the process can and usually does take years. The article mentions that it's not yet implemented, but then goes on to claim that the institution might commit "copy fraud", which cannot be the case if it's not yet the law. Perhaps this is why the museum caved in so quickly? 2. Most German institutions that are funded by tax payer money have an obligation to generate profits where they can, to reduce the taxpayer burden. They cite an example of €2M of profits from their commercial picture licensing deals. Without being able to copyright their pictures, this would be taxpayer money spent, or a cut in funding. Obviously, there's an argument to be made that this would be a very good use of taxpayer money, but it's a valid point to make. The foundation is a non-profit entity - any money they make will go towards conservation efforts. There are other similar examples - the German national weather service does not make its high-resolution Cosmo-D2 weather model available for free, and neither does the national land survey office publish all of its maps or its millimeter-resolution AGPS data feed for free. The reason is that those are worth a lot of money to commercial weather forecasting services or survey companies and licensing the data funds the data collection efforts. The weather service (DWD) actually used to publish its high-resolution weather forecast for free as a smartphone app (DWD WarnWetter) and got sued by a free ad-supported online weather service (WetterOnline) on antitrust grounds and was forced to discontinue its free service - this lawsuit is still going on[1]. > The scary language has real-world consequences. These 3D scans could be used by people who want to 3D-print a replica for a classroom, integrate the 3D model into an art piece, or allow people to hold the piece in a virtual reality world. The Creative Commons license in question is widely used and not scary at all - many artists use it themselves, and given how widespread and accepted it is, it's the exact opposite of a "keep out" sign. Very interesting situation, and great work by the activist who made it happen and the German professor supporting him. The article could have used a little less exaggeration. Personally, as a German tax payer, I'm happy about my tax money being put to good use by making such copies public domain in the future, and I hope that the new law will not deter such 3D scanning efforts in the future. [1]: http://juris.bundesgerichtshof.de/cgi-bin/rechtsprechung/document.py?Gericht=bgh&Art=pm&pm_nummer=0039/19 http://juris.bundesgerichtshof.de/cgi-bin/rechtsprechung/doc...