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Yes, And – How to be effective in the theatre of work

358 points by jger15 7y ago

jaytaylor 7y ago
Chapter 2 is also available: "Optimism as an Operating System" https://tomcritchlow.com/2019/11/19/optimism-operating-system/ https://tomcritchlow.com/2019/11/19/optimism-operating-syste... I'm really looking forward to chapter 4, "Status Switching", as it's a skill I'm very keen to further develop. I wish I could get an email as soon as it's posted.
- svmegatron 7y ago
  I think you can - there is a link to sign up for the newsletter at the bottom of the page
  - topcat31 7y ago
    Author here: yes I have an email list here (infrequent) that I'll post a message to once chapters 3 and 4 are ready: https://tinyletter.com/tomcritchlow https://tinyletter.com/tomcritchlow
DoctorNick 7y ago
This article is about as insufferable as most improv groups.
- gatherhunterer 7y ago
  Yes! And about as annoying as a manager whose job is to talk about work without actually doing any.
  - brennanpeterson 7y ago
    The job of a manger is to differentiate work from talk about work. That is why there are managers at different levels, and that is their core function. If someone can talk their way into a promotion, that is either a sales organization, or a great sign of a failing company. Or a strategy group. A version of this is available every day: commercial journalism is the act of promoting good writing over good thinking. Usually for the same reasons as most bad plans: ideas structured by analogy, visualization, and context free approximation. Anyway, this is a good article, and because it is often true, one worth pushing back against.
- dmaldona 7y ago
  True. And the corrupt morals beneath that facade of optimism are depressing. What a world are we creating!
- SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
  I’m glad I wasn’t the only one that thought so. It was written as smug fact and man that rubs me the wrong way for some reason.
- OldGuyInTheClub 7y ago
  Do consultants know (or care) what workers think of them?
- deleted 7y ago
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splittingTimes 7y ago
From another thread I saw the recommendation for "Getting to Yes, and... The art of business improv"[1]. It just arrived yesterday. This blog post looks eerily similar. === [1] https://www.amazon.com/-/de/dp/0804795800/ref=mp_s_a_1_8?keywords=yes+and&qid=1575120878&sr=8-8 https://www.amazon.com/-/de/dp/0804795800/ref=mp_s_a_1_8?key...
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yamrzou 7y ago
« Many people aspire to “silent success” at work - to do work that “speaks for itself”. Unfortunately this is the wrong move in the theatre of work. Instead we should aspire to the opposite - for knowledge work, the performance of the work is the work. » Not sure what the author means by “knowledge work”, but I find this very true, for any type of work.
- kbouck 7y ago
  I think the author's usage fits with this definition: https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge_worker https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge_worker
- debt 7y ago
  Furthermore, work doesn’t speak so you’ll have to speak for it. And defend it. And sell it.
  - phkahler 7y ago
    While writing embedded code I realized a major problem with code relative to the rest of the product. You can't see it, can't touch it, and it doesnt appear on the bill of material. To most people it doesnt even exist. This would be somewhat different if your product IS software, but the same still applies to the actual code - the author is the only one who will ever see what they wrote.
    - detaro 7y ago
      > it doesnt appear on the bill of material I've actually seen a few customers listing it as such (based on some sales estimate), but it doesn't seem common. Which is a bit weird, especially in cases where you can trade software cost for hardware cost.
      - HeyLaughingBoy 7y ago
        One very good reason for putting firmware/software on the BOM is to ensure that the correct version is used in production. Whenever we do a firmware release, part of our process is to update the BOM of whatever product it's for with the firmware revision number.
gormo2 7y ago
Very interesting to see this at the top of HN literally just after reading "Human Capital: a Horror Story" https://amgreatness.com/2019/11/27/human-capital-a-horror-story/ https://amgreatness.com/2019/11/27/human-capital-a-horror-st...
- deleted 7y ago
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- jtr1 7y ago
  Good lord, what a schlocky piece of propaganda this is.
  - pjc50 7y ago
    The person responsible desperately needs to be happy, but is far more invested in their own supremacy to actually enjoy human contact.
- zaphod4prez 7y ago
  That piece is really bizarre and poorly written. It feels like they're trying to shoehorn a bunch of right-wing talking points into a piece about corporate boringness. This quote is laughably bad: > The male toilet has disappeared overnight. Now there is an “All-Gender Toilet” and the door is decorated in rainbow hearts. > You go through three stalls before you find one that hasn’t got a used tampon floating in the basin or discarded on the floor.
  - SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
    With you on the first sentence, it is written poorly. It came off as smug and trying to be a scientific explanation for an opinion. On your second sentence, I have no idea what you are talking about. Right wing talking points? Leave your politics at the door sometimes.
    - licebmi__at__ 7y ago
      It's not like the author is shy of his views and agenda. If you truly don't see the right wing talking points, well maybe you just perceive as normal the views of a far-right political writer, no need to be shy about it.
specialist 7y ago
An interview with D'Arcy Carden (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm3639013/ https://www.imdb.com/name/nm3639013/) about her stand out performance on The Good Place (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4955642/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4955642/) was the first I'd heard about "Yes, And...". Got me curious about improv. Previously, I equated it to standup comedy. D'Arcy Carden: The goal is to make the other person(s) look awesome. I wish I could tell younger me to study improv, to hear this nugget of wisdom, before joining the work force. Might have saved myself and everyone else a lot of heart ache.
rpmisms 7y ago
Thanks for a great article. I want to share this with some stressed colleagues, but I doubt they'd appreciate it. Many people in America take the theatre seriously, and thinking of it as such would be detrimental to their self-image.
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gremlin001 7y ago
I unfortunately recognize several of these as being true from my five years at BigCo. Is this advice true of a (tiny) startup as well? Work should speak for itself when the survival of a company depends on it, right? I'd like to know if it's the same on the other side.
- Ididntdothis 7y ago
  It's the same there too as soon as employee count is in the double digits.
- carrozo 7y ago
  Too true. Survival of the company = the show must go on!
- elwell 7y ago
  I've only worked at tiny startups; I would say in the majority of cases, work speaks for itself. One thing to consider though, if you're producing good code... why would you be promoted to a position of mostly managing others? The company would no longer benefit from you as an IC. At tiny startups, even the CTO is spending a lot of time coding.
  - generatorguy 7y ago
    You can only code so much as you can - your output is limited to your skill, ability to learn, work ethic or determination, and time. There are all kinds of things that can waste your time - programming something that wasn’t required, programming something in a way that becomes a problem later on, oversights and other mistakes, but hopefully with experience you waste less of your own time by learning from all these previous less than optimal decisions. Now if there is more work to do than you personally want to do - it would just consume your life - maybe it is time to get some help, and then you are managing your helper in some way by guiding what they work on to help you out in the way that helps you get more work done than you could have by yourself. And then you get another helper, and another, and soon enough the team of programmers you are managing can produce more than you could have ever done by yourself. You don’t write much code anymore but You help your team solve problems with the building blocks you have, and keep them on the right path when customers and other forces will try to benefit themselves at your teams expense.
codingdave 7y ago
Second City, a well-known improv club/school offers workshops to teams focused on exactly these concepts. My team went to one of their workshops in Chicago a few years back, and while it was not world-changing, at was eye-opening. https://www.secondcityworks.com/ https://www.secondcityworks.com/
bigred100 7y ago
In my opinion just look around and see what the successful people are doing. Putting your head down and working is what I’d do for developing my own technical or something else skills. I.e. studying. Nobody I’ve met who gets high success in an office job does that. I wonder if there’s not something to read into this a bit beyond my current abilities. Many people work on things that they consider somewhat boring, or at least not at the boundary of their skill set. People above you in the organization spent a lot of time building “synergies” and organizing a team of people frankly (in most cases) somewhat overqualified for the task. It seems like throwing all that out by not integrating enough into the social group is a terrible idea.
- amelius 7y ago
  Imho, if you're successful without working hard, you have "hacked" the system, and like any form of hacking this should be punishable, in this case e.g. by degradation. If only we had a system where (special) judges were able to determine who works hard and who doesn't and from there decide who gets what amount of pay, and who deserves a promotion. We could actually have a fair society.
  - bigred100 7y ago
    This sounds like much more of a hell than sometimes having to chat with a coworker you don’t like (judges monitoring you and punishing you if you don’t work hard enough).
    - amelius 7y ago
      Why? Your boss is judging you and your coworkers all the time. A real judge would at least make it a fair judgement.
  - vageli 7y ago
    > Imho, if you're successful without working hard, you have "hacked" the system, and like any form of hacking this should be punishable, in this case e.g. by degradation. > If only we had a system where (special) judges were able to determine who works hard and who doesn't and from there decide who gets what amount of pay, and who deserves a promotion. We could actually have a fair society. Why should pay be based on how hard one works? I know when I started my career I had to work _much_ harder, because I had not yet been around the block so to speak. As time went on I became much more efficient with my time, experience makes it easier to see patterns, etc. So if the metric is how hard one works, as I get better at my job I'd actually get paid less?
mjparrott 7y ago
A lesson I found helpful is with regards to the need to build a network of mentors, supporters and followers. This won’t apply to all fields but maybe some people will find it helpful. Mentors are people who you can go to when you’re stuck on a topic, regardless of what it is. They help you navigate through your org (politics, context behind decisions, etc). These people can be in your team/department or could just be someone you’ve met by the water cooler and developed a relationship with. Supporters are similar to mentors, but more committed. These people will take their own initiative and go out of their way to create opportunities for you. They consider your success as a part of their own success and therefore will do what they can to help you grow and develop. Followers are people who you’ve either worked side by side with, or who have worked for you. You may take on the mentor or supporter role for them. If you switched teams or departments, these people would want to come with you.
- afarrell 7y ago
  Do you know of a good guide to building a single relationship with a mentor? It is something I have been trying to do for the past 8 years. I suspect that the advice I need is “obvious”.
east2west 7y ago
It is rather interesting that this is on the front page with "Authenticity promotes well-being in life and at work" [1]. I don't believe they are opposite, but it is difficult to achieve both. However, publicizing individual work is absolutely crucial for promotion or even keeping one's job. My personal take is to build something concrete, something other people find useful. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21666569 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21666569
mjw1007 7y ago
I think there's one case where saying a plan won't work is the right thing to do, and trying to "get to yes" will often be a mistake: when you understand what needs to be done, and the (time or money) budget is too small. If you try to "get to yes", it will often happen that the person in the position of the client will respond by cutting scope, saying "well, we don't really need that part just now". And then it will usually turn out that they really did want what they originally said they wanted, and maybe try to sneak the features back in in disguise, and the whole thing overruns or else you end up saying no in a position where everyone is worse off than if you'd said no to start with. I think they should teach Bridge in management school. Often not being in a contract is the right answer!
xrd 7y ago
Lots of comments here come off as very resistant to accepting the ideas presented here: that success at work is as much about the quality of your work as the effort made to connect with the humans in an organization evaluating the work. Improv is a perfect frame for this: entertaining but doing deep preparation for that entertainment. What I'm really fascinated by is how this can be translated to remote working. I don't think water-cooler talk is possible in Slack. I would be really surprised to find anyone at the top of performance in any organization that isn't fully remote without resorting to Machiavellian tactics. I wonder if the stresses you saw at GitHub during their period of centralizing management in SF after really marketing themselves as remote first were evidence of this.
- phlakaton 7y ago
  Nonsense. At least 30% of the chat I do on Slack is "water cooler talk" of one sort or another. Music, games, city happenings, a smattering of politics, random Internet cuteness, the all-important channel devoted to mechanical keyboards, etc. etc. Haven't started up a channel on D&D podcasts yet but it's probably not far behind. ;-)
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- pavel_lishin 7y ago
  > I don't think water-cooler talk is possible in Slack. Probably not quite to the same level as in-person conversation, but nearly every place I've worked had a variety of off-topic channels (both for specific topics, and totally random discussion), and plenty of my 1:1 slack conversations end up evolving into personal discussions (e.g., "Hey, btw, I saw a cool-looking book on your shelf when you dialed into the meeting - what is that?")
  - xrd 7y ago
    After I wrote that, I thought: maybe lots of people think that slack is for that. I think you are right. But, I do also think that a crucial distinction is that most people assume water cooler talk isn't recorded. I have several co-workers who have said something in slack, then noted this is probably available to the boss, and then deleted the comment (who really knows if it is actually deleted and not available to the boss as a paid upgrade!). The point is water cooler talk is risk free, and I think at least an important part of those conversations with your coworkers should be experimental and searching, and having a surveillance layer over there prohibits (or inhibits) that.
erikerikson 7y ago
Yes, once some workers start using social tools to advantage themselves and their work, it does become mandatory to use them too. The incentive is then to escalate and invest more in social machinations. And be endlessly positive about everyone and their ideas so that only positive feelings are associated with you. Choose your favorites by directing attention and investment. Ignore the unkept promises or implications since they will be to the less popular people and projects which are inherently less powerful. May all bullets be directed to backs and all knifes sheathed likewise. There is some importance to keeping a pleasant and encouraging workplace but some of us value honesty and straightforwardness as well as the efficiencies that go with these practices. These require real work however.
- ailideex 7y ago
  Hard pass but have at it.
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salamanderman 7y ago
As someone who has studied improv for three years, and read both of Keith Johnstone's books numerous times, I highly recommend reading Johnstone's books specifically, rather than this. It's true that improv is immensely useful in the workplace. However, this article has very little that references Johnstone; it seems to be taking the high level, general understanding of improv as a jumping off point for their own advice. Their chapters to follow do reflect some of the topics Johnstone covers, but again, I highly recommend just reading Impro and/or taking a couple improv classes at your local school if you can. Getting it straight from the source will be incredibly helpful in your work and personal life.
- topcat31 7y ago
  Author here - Yes I would definitely recommend reading Impro over reading my blog post. The basic premise for this series is inspired by the book and I definitely borrow more directly and heavily for chapters 3 and 4 (which aren't quite ready to publish yet!).
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mmanfrin 7y ago
Sincere plea to everyone who does frontend: please knock it off with the on-select rich media shit. I am a compulsive selecter (and I know there are others like me). I like to select text as I read and it's jarring to have annotations pop up on the side as I do it.
- avip 7y ago
  (not to disagree...) It's hypothes.is integration. https://web.hypothes.is https://web.hypothes.is
- ryanianian 7y ago
  Huge +1 to this. Selecting text is how I visually and mentally keep track of where I am. I've found the Firefox Reader mode (or various equivalents) work around this 80% of the time, but I rage-close websites that have this and have somehow managed to defeat reader mode.
- topcat31 7y ago
  Author here - yeah I hear you. I love the hypothesis interactions when they happen on my site but the UI is a little aggressive (especially on mobile). All about tradeoffs unfortunately. FWIW I posted a little UX teardown of the different annotation platforms here if you're interested: https://tomcritchlow.com/2019/02/12/annotations/ https://tomcritchlow.com/2019/02/12/annotations/
- synthmeat 7y ago
  Are you a double-clicker or just selector? I'm a double-clicker and I know of many others. I don't know many "selectors". In that spirit, they should just ignore double-clicking in whatever they wanna present for selections.
  - mmanfrin 7y ago
    Both. I do this up-and-down selection where I select from above and then from below big chunks of text, and then occasionally (I think when I'm concentrating on a specific sentence) I'll doubleclick a word a bunch to select the word and then the paragraph back and forth.
madroar 7y ago
you can check here https://madroar.com/ https://madroar.com/
doublerebel 7y ago
The "Yes, And" technique is best when presenting as a team, e.g. for sales meeting or investment pitch. It supports what your colleague is saying even while you may need to make a correction. I've been automatically using this technique for years, since I have a performance and improv background. The rest of improv may not be as applicable, but performance sure does! The show must go on (despite unexpected setbacks or illness or personal feelings), how to speak in front of crowds (even while being ridiculed or ignored), being fully prepared through scripts and rehearsals until you embody the story you are trying to tell... Is an integral part of leading startups and I credit much of my success to that experience. If everyone on your team is fully embedded in the purpose and ethos of your story, than you can fill in for each other if someone drops a line or needs a stand-in. In a startup everyone is selling! And it will be much more authentic with this level of camaraderie and committment.
- jdtbuchanan 7y ago
  I agree this is a useful tactic when presenting if everyone is clear when to use it. However, I’ve seen the downside of this where a person answers the question then everyone else “yes, ands” until the answer is muddled or the team looks unprepared. I always go with the rule of thumb that unless the person who answered is so far off base that it materially changes the outcome it’s often better letting the answer go and moving on to the next.
  - doublerebel 7y ago
    Completely agree. If everyone is "yes, and"-ing then it's clear the team is unprepared -- this would never happen in a professional performance! Better to cut losses and not come back out until better rehearsed. Anyone experienced with performing or speaking can immediately tell when the speaker doesn't know their lines/story.
- gherkinnn 7y ago
  I see its value when mostly in agreement. Keeps the flow going. But how does one do "yes, and ...", when the previous statement is clearly wrong? You either sound sarcastic or like a patronising twat. "It is snowing." "Yes, and I'll leave my sweater at home since it's rather warm outside."
topcat31 7y ago
Author here - thanks for all the comments and feedback. Lovely surprise to wake up to this on the HN homepage. Some light additional context - this is part of my ongoing series "The Strategic Independent" which will eventually become a book sometime next year. All the posts in that series are catalogued here: https://www.are.na/tom-critchlow/the-strategic-independent https://www.are.na/tom-critchlow/the-strategic-independent This post (and the whole series) is designed for independent consultants, free-agents and freelancers who have to navigate entering and exiting client environments often faster than full-time employees. Hopefully there's something useful in that context but many of these ideas could be applicable beyond that also. Anyway - thanks for the love. If you have topic suggestions for future posts in this series would love to hear them! Thanks, Tom.
- topcat31 7y ago
  Also - thank you Github pages & Cloudflare for keeping my site up through a HN bump.
- adenverd 7y ago
  > Hopefully there's something useful in that context but many of these ideas could be applicable beyond that also. They’re very applicable outside the context of consulting - they’re fundamental for any leader joining a new organization to integrate well and get things done. Consultants transition more often than most; the principles you’ve shared are a great reference for the rest of us on how to be effective in a new environment.
dominotw 7y ago
> they’re asking for people to take positions and have opinions. Yes only positions and opinions that make them look good. For example, in a tech all hands. "Ask" questions like these 1. How did the upper management react to cost savings from initiative X. 2. How did vendor feel about us canceling their contract by building a cheaper home grown system that is saving us X million $ every year. 3. What is the strategy for filling out open positions faster. ( we are doing so good that we have way too many open positions) 4. "joke questions" , did CEO actually finish 50 pies in pie eating contest at the management retreat ,like he claims he did. also, consultants rarely get invited to these all hands in the first place.
- izacus 7y ago
  And what exactly did you / would you think to accomplish with these questions? Besides attempting to publicly humiliate people who're paying you and stroking your own ego? "Questions" like these put other people on defensive (which means they won't listen to you anymore) and mark you out as an a*hole (which means they won't listen to you at all). It's counterproductive. I'm always baffled how engineers don't get that: they can understand that you need to write "printf()" and not "abort()" to achieve printout, but can't understand simple rules on how to achieve results when interacting with other people?
  - dominotw 7y ago
    > attempting to publicly humiliate people who're paying you No it's the opposite. How does highlighting millions of cost savings from CTO's initiative humiliate him? I am confused how you got that impression from my comment. what did i miss.
    - jt2190 7y ago
      Not the commenter, and I understood what you were getting at, however, your original post doesn’t specify who is being asked the questions. It’s implied you’re asking the CTO, but it’s never clearly stated. That said, this is a good reminder for everyone to “read generously”: If you read something that seems absurd, take a minute to make sure you’re not just misunderstanding the post. Posts often gloss over context, and so you should try to rebuild that context.
glitchc 7y ago
I’m disappointed with articles like this. If I wanted to be in sales, I wouldn’t be in engineering. Not everything is about marketing. Some people need to, and daresay, enjoy building things, otherwise nothing would ever get built. This salesification of all business strata is strictly an American phenomenon, and will eventually be the death of American industry. Already our major exports are media and pop culture that exemplify this phenomenon. Now engineers are supposed to market themselves? No wonder we don’t manufacture anything worth exporting anymore.

358 points by jger15 7y ago

Chapter 2 is also available: "Optimism as an Operating System" https://tomcritchlow.com/2019/11/19/optimism-operating-system/ https://tomcritchlow.com/2019/11/19/optimism-operating-syste... I'm really looking forward to chapter 4, "Status Switching", as it's a skill I'm very keen to further develop. I wish I could get an email as soon as it's posted.

svmegatron 7y ago
I think you can - there is a link to sign up for the newsletter at the bottom of the page
- topcat31 7y ago
  Author here: yes I have an email list here (infrequent) that I'll post a message to once chapters 3 and 4 are ready: https://tinyletter.com/tomcritchlow https://tinyletter.com/tomcritchlow

DoctorNick 7y ago

This article is about as insufferable as most improv groups.

gatherhunterer 7y ago
Yes! And about as annoying as a manager whose job is to talk about work without actually doing any.
- brennanpeterson 7y ago
  The job of a manger is to differentiate work from talk about work. That is why there are managers at different levels, and that is their core function. If someone can talk their way into a promotion, that is either a sales organization, or a great sign of a failing company. Or a strategy group. A version of this is available every day: commercial journalism is the act of promoting good writing over good thinking. Usually for the same reasons as most bad plans: ideas structured by analogy, visualization, and context free approximation. Anyway, this is a good article, and because it is often true, one worth pushing back against.
dmaldona 7y ago
True. And the corrupt morals beneath that facade of optimism are depressing. What a world are we creating!
SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
I’m glad I wasn’t the only one that thought so. It was written as smug fact and man that rubs me the wrong way for some reason.
OldGuyInTheClub 7y ago
Do consultants know (or care) what workers think of them?
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splittingTimes 7y ago

From another thread I saw the recommendation for "Getting to Yes, and... The art of business improv"[1]. It just arrived yesterday. This blog post looks eerily similar. === [1] https://www.amazon.com/-/de/dp/0804795800/ref=mp_s_a_1_8?keywords=yes+and&qid=1575120878&sr=8-8 https://www.amazon.com/-/de/dp/0804795800/ref=mp_s_a_1_8?key...

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yamrzou 7y ago

« Many people aspire to “silent success” at work - to do work that “speaks for itself”. Unfortunately this is the wrong move in the theatre of work. Instead we should aspire to the opposite - for knowledge work, the performance of the work is the work. » Not sure what the author means by “knowledge work”, but I find this very true, for any type of work.

kbouck 7y ago
I think the author's usage fits with this definition: https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge_worker https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge_worker
debt 7y ago
Furthermore, work doesn’t speak so you’ll have to speak for it. And defend it. And sell it.
- phkahler 7y ago
  While writing embedded code I realized a major problem with code relative to the rest of the product. You can't see it, can't touch it, and it doesnt appear on the bill of material. To most people it doesnt even exist. This would be somewhat different if your product IS software, but the same still applies to the actual code - the author is the only one who will ever see what they wrote.
  - detaro 7y ago
    > it doesnt appear on the bill of material I've actually seen a few customers listing it as such (based on some sales estimate), but it doesn't seem common. Which is a bit weird, especially in cases where you can trade software cost for hardware cost.
    - HeyLaughingBoy 7y ago
      One very good reason for putting firmware/software on the BOM is to ensure that the correct version is used in production. Whenever we do a firmware release, part of our process is to update the BOM of whatever product it's for with the firmware revision number.

gormo2 7y ago

Very interesting to see this at the top of HN literally just after reading "Human Capital: a Horror Story" https://amgreatness.com/2019/11/27/human-capital-a-horror-story/ https://amgreatness.com/2019/11/27/human-capital-a-horror-st...

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jtr1 7y ago
Good lord, what a schlocky piece of propaganda this is.
- pjc50 7y ago
  The person responsible desperately needs to be happy, but is far more invested in their own supremacy to actually enjoy human contact.
zaphod4prez 7y ago
That piece is really bizarre and poorly written. It feels like they're trying to shoehorn a bunch of right-wing talking points into a piece about corporate boringness. This quote is laughably bad: > The male toilet has disappeared overnight. Now there is an “All-Gender Toilet” and the door is decorated in rainbow hearts. > You go through three stalls before you find one that hasn’t got a used tampon floating in the basin or discarded on the floor.
- SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
  With you on the first sentence, it is written poorly. It came off as smug and trying to be a scientific explanation for an opinion. On your second sentence, I have no idea what you are talking about. Right wing talking points? Leave your politics at the door sometimes.
  - licebmi__at__ 7y ago
    It's not like the author is shy of his views and agenda. If you truly don't see the right wing talking points, well maybe you just perceive as normal the views of a far-right political writer, no need to be shy about it.

specialist 7y ago

An interview with D'Arcy Carden (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm3639013/ https://www.imdb.com/name/nm3639013/) about her stand out performance on The Good Place (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4955642/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4955642/) was the first I'd heard about "Yes, And...". Got me curious about improv. Previously, I equated it to standup comedy. D'Arcy Carden: The goal is to make the other person(s) look awesome. I wish I could tell younger me to study improv, to hear this nugget of wisdom, before joining the work force. Might have saved myself and everyone else a lot of heart ache.

rpmisms 7y ago

Thanks for a great article. I want to share this with some stressed colleagues, but I doubt they'd appreciate it. Many people in America take the theatre seriously, and thinking of it as such would be detrimental to their self-image.

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gremlin001 7y ago

I unfortunately recognize several of these as being true from my five years at BigCo. Is this advice true of a (tiny) startup as well? Work should speak for itself when the survival of a company depends on it, right? I'd like to know if it's the same on the other side.

Ididntdothis 7y ago
It's the same there too as soon as employee count is in the double digits.
carrozo 7y ago
Too true. Survival of the company = the show must go on!
elwell 7y ago
I've only worked at tiny startups; I would say in the majority of cases, work speaks for itself. One thing to consider though, if you're producing good code... why would you be promoted to a position of mostly managing others? The company would no longer benefit from you as an IC. At tiny startups, even the CTO is spending a lot of time coding.
- generatorguy 7y ago
  You can only code so much as you can - your output is limited to your skill, ability to learn, work ethic or determination, and time. There are all kinds of things that can waste your time - programming something that wasn’t required, programming something in a way that becomes a problem later on, oversights and other mistakes, but hopefully with experience you waste less of your own time by learning from all these previous less than optimal decisions. Now if there is more work to do than you personally want to do - it would just consume your life - maybe it is time to get some help, and then you are managing your helper in some way by guiding what they work on to help you out in the way that helps you get more work done than you could have by yourself. And then you get another helper, and another, and soon enough the team of programmers you are managing can produce more than you could have ever done by yourself. You don’t write much code anymore but You help your team solve problems with the building blocks you have, and keep them on the right path when customers and other forces will try to benefit themselves at your teams expense.

codingdave 7y ago

Second City, a well-known improv club/school offers workshops to teams focused on exactly these concepts. My team went to one of their workshops in Chicago a few years back, and while it was not world-changing, at was eye-opening. https://www.secondcityworks.com/ https://www.secondcityworks.com/

bigred100 7y ago

In my opinion just look around and see what the successful people are doing. Putting your head down and working is what I’d do for developing my own technical or something else skills. I.e. studying. Nobody I’ve met who gets high success in an office job does that. I wonder if there’s not something to read into this a bit beyond my current abilities. Many people work on things that they consider somewhat boring, or at least not at the boundary of their skill set. People above you in the organization spent a lot of time building “synergies” and organizing a team of people frankly (in most cases) somewhat overqualified for the task. It seems like throwing all that out by not integrating enough into the social group is a terrible idea.

amelius 7y ago
Imho, if you're successful without working hard, you have "hacked" the system, and like any form of hacking this should be punishable, in this case e.g. by degradation. If only we had a system where (special) judges were able to determine who works hard and who doesn't and from there decide who gets what amount of pay, and who deserves a promotion. We could actually have a fair society.
- bigred100 7y ago
  This sounds like much more of a hell than sometimes having to chat with a coworker you don’t like (judges monitoring you and punishing you if you don’t work hard enough).
  - amelius 7y ago
    Why? Your boss is judging you and your coworkers all the time. A real judge would at least make it a fair judgement.
- vageli 7y ago
  > Imho, if you're successful without working hard, you have "hacked" the system, and like any form of hacking this should be punishable, in this case e.g. by degradation. > If only we had a system where (special) judges were able to determine who works hard and who doesn't and from there decide who gets what amount of pay, and who deserves a promotion. We could actually have a fair society. Why should pay be based on how hard one works? I know when I started my career I had to work _much_ harder, because I had not yet been around the block so to speak. As time went on I became much more efficient with my time, experience makes it easier to see patterns, etc. So if the metric is how hard one works, as I get better at my job I'd actually get paid less?

mjparrott 7y ago

A lesson I found helpful is with regards to the need to build a network of mentors, supporters and followers. This won’t apply to all fields but maybe some people will find it helpful. Mentors are people who you can go to when you’re stuck on a topic, regardless of what it is. They help you navigate through your org (politics, context behind decisions, etc). These people can be in your team/department or could just be someone you’ve met by the water cooler and developed a relationship with. Supporters are similar to mentors, but more committed. These people will take their own initiative and go out of their way to create opportunities for you. They consider your success as a part of their own success and therefore will do what they can to help you grow and develop. Followers are people who you’ve either worked side by side with, or who have worked for you. You may take on the mentor or supporter role for them. If you switched teams or departments, these people would want to come with you.

afarrell 7y ago
Do you know of a good guide to building a single relationship with a mentor? It is something I have been trying to do for the past 8 years. I suspect that the advice I need is “obvious”.

east2west 7y ago

It is rather interesting that this is on the front page with "Authenticity promotes well-being in life and at work" [1]. I don't believe they are opposite, but it is difficult to achieve both. However, publicizing individual work is absolutely crucial for promotion or even keeping one's job. My personal take is to build something concrete, something other people find useful. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21666569 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21666569

mjw1007 7y ago

I think there's one case where saying a plan won't work is the right thing to do, and trying to "get to yes" will often be a mistake: when you understand what needs to be done, and the (time or money) budget is too small. If you try to "get to yes", it will often happen that the person in the position of the client will respond by cutting scope, saying "well, we don't really need that part just now". And then it will usually turn out that they really did want what they originally said they wanted, and maybe try to sneak the features back in in disguise, and the whole thing overruns or else you end up saying no in a position where everyone is worse off than if you'd said no to start with. I think they should teach Bridge in management school. Often not being in a contract is the right answer!

xrd 7y ago

Lots of comments here come off as very resistant to accepting the ideas presented here: that success at work is as much about the quality of your work as the effort made to connect with the humans in an organization evaluating the work. Improv is a perfect frame for this: entertaining but doing deep preparation for that entertainment. What I'm really fascinated by is how this can be translated to remote working. I don't think water-cooler talk is possible in Slack. I would be really surprised to find anyone at the top of performance in any organization that isn't fully remote without resorting to Machiavellian tactics. I wonder if the stresses you saw at GitHub during their period of centralizing management in SF after really marketing themselves as remote first were evidence of this.

phlakaton 7y ago
Nonsense. At least 30% of the chat I do on Slack is "water cooler talk" of one sort or another. Music, games, city happenings, a smattering of politics, random Internet cuteness, the all-important channel devoted to mechanical keyboards, etc. etc. Haven't started up a channel on D&D podcasts yet but it's probably not far behind. ;-)
- deleted 7y ago
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pavel_lishin 7y ago
> I don't think water-cooler talk is possible in Slack. Probably not quite to the same level as in-person conversation, but nearly every place I've worked had a variety of off-topic channels (both for specific topics, and totally random discussion), and plenty of my 1:1 slack conversations end up evolving into personal discussions (e.g., "Hey, btw, I saw a cool-looking book on your shelf when you dialed into the meeting - what is that?")
- xrd 7y ago
  After I wrote that, I thought: maybe lots of people think that slack is for that. I think you are right. But, I do also think that a crucial distinction is that most people assume water cooler talk isn't recorded. I have several co-workers who have said something in slack, then noted this is probably available to the boss, and then deleted the comment (who really knows if it is actually deleted and not available to the boss as a paid upgrade!). The point is water cooler talk is risk free, and I think at least an important part of those conversations with your coworkers should be experimental and searching, and having a surveillance layer over there prohibits (or inhibits) that.

erikerikson 7y ago

Yes, once some workers start using social tools to advantage themselves and their work, it does become mandatory to use them too. The incentive is then to escalate and invest more in social machinations. And be endlessly positive about everyone and their ideas so that only positive feelings are associated with you. Choose your favorites by directing attention and investment. Ignore the unkept promises or implications since they will be to the less popular people and projects which are inherently less powerful. May all bullets be directed to backs and all knifes sheathed likewise. There is some importance to keeping a pleasant and encouraging workplace but some of us value honesty and straightforwardness as well as the efficiencies that go with these practices. These require real work however.

ailideex 7y ago
Hard pass but have at it.

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salamanderman 7y ago

As someone who has studied improv for three years, and read both of Keith Johnstone's books numerous times, I highly recommend reading Johnstone's books specifically, rather than this. It's true that improv is immensely useful in the workplace. However, this article has very little that references Johnstone; it seems to be taking the high level, general understanding of improv as a jumping off point for their own advice. Their chapters to follow do reflect some of the topics Johnstone covers, but again, I highly recommend just reading Impro and/or taking a couple improv classes at your local school if you can. Getting it straight from the source will be incredibly helpful in your work and personal life.

topcat31 7y ago
Author here - Yes I would definitely recommend reading Impro over reading my blog post. The basic premise for this series is inspired by the book and I definitely borrow more directly and heavily for chapters 3 and 4 (which aren't quite ready to publish yet!).

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mmanfrin 7y ago

Sincere plea to everyone who does frontend: please knock it off with the on-select rich media shit. I am a compulsive selecter (and I know there are others like me). I like to select text as I read and it's jarring to have annotations pop up on the side as I do it.

avip 7y ago
(not to disagree...) It's hypothes.is integration. https://web.hypothes.is https://web.hypothes.is
ryanianian 7y ago
Huge +1 to this. Selecting text is how I visually and mentally keep track of where I am. I've found the Firefox Reader mode (or various equivalents) work around this 80% of the time, but I rage-close websites that have this and have somehow managed to defeat reader mode.
topcat31 7y ago
Author here - yeah I hear you. I love the hypothesis interactions when they happen on my site but the UI is a little aggressive (especially on mobile). All about tradeoffs unfortunately. FWIW I posted a little UX teardown of the different annotation platforms here if you're interested: https://tomcritchlow.com/2019/02/12/annotations/ https://tomcritchlow.com/2019/02/12/annotations/
synthmeat 7y ago
Are you a double-clicker or just selector? I'm a double-clicker and I know of many others. I don't know many "selectors". In that spirit, they should just ignore double-clicking in whatever they wanna present for selections.
- mmanfrin 7y ago
  Both. I do this up-and-down selection where I select from above and then from below big chunks of text, and then occasionally (I think when I'm concentrating on a specific sentence) I'll doubleclick a word a bunch to select the word and then the paragraph back and forth.

madroar 7y ago

you can check here https://madroar.com/ https://madroar.com/

doublerebel 7y ago

The "Yes, And" technique is best when presenting as a team, e.g. for sales meeting or investment pitch. It supports what your colleague is saying even while you may need to make a correction. I've been automatically using this technique for years, since I have a performance and improv background. The rest of improv may not be as applicable, but performance sure does! The show must go on (despite unexpected setbacks or illness or personal feelings), how to speak in front of crowds (even while being ridiculed or ignored), being fully prepared through scripts and rehearsals until you embody the story you are trying to tell... Is an integral part of leading startups and I credit much of my success to that experience. If everyone on your team is fully embedded in the purpose and ethos of your story, than you can fill in for each other if someone drops a line or needs a stand-in. In a startup everyone is selling! And it will be much more authentic with this level of camaraderie and committment.

jdtbuchanan 7y ago
I agree this is a useful tactic when presenting if everyone is clear when to use it. However, I’ve seen the downside of this where a person answers the question then everyone else “yes, ands” until the answer is muddled or the team looks unprepared. I always go with the rule of thumb that unless the person who answered is so far off base that it materially changes the outcome it’s often better letting the answer go and moving on to the next.
- doublerebel 7y ago
  Completely agree. If everyone is "yes, and"-ing then it's clear the team is unprepared -- this would never happen in a professional performance! Better to cut losses and not come back out until better rehearsed. Anyone experienced with performing or speaking can immediately tell when the speaker doesn't know their lines/story.
gherkinnn 7y ago
I see its value when mostly in agreement. Keeps the flow going. But how does one do "yes, and ...", when the previous statement is clearly wrong? You either sound sarcastic or like a patronising twat. "It is snowing." "Yes, and I'll leave my sweater at home since it's rather warm outside."

topcat31 7y ago

Author here - thanks for all the comments and feedback. Lovely surprise to wake up to this on the HN homepage. Some light additional context - this is part of my ongoing series "The Strategic Independent" which will eventually become a book sometime next year. All the posts in that series are catalogued here: https://www.are.na/tom-critchlow/the-strategic-independent https://www.are.na/tom-critchlow/the-strategic-independent This post (and the whole series) is designed for independent consultants, free-agents and freelancers who have to navigate entering and exiting client environments often faster than full-time employees. Hopefully there's something useful in that context but many of these ideas could be applicable beyond that also. Anyway - thanks for the love. If you have topic suggestions for future posts in this series would love to hear them! Thanks, Tom.

topcat31 7y ago
Also - thank you Github pages & Cloudflare for keeping my site up through a HN bump.
adenverd 7y ago
> Hopefully there's something useful in that context but many of these ideas could be applicable beyond that also. They’re very applicable outside the context of consulting - they’re fundamental for any leader joining a new organization to integrate well and get things done. Consultants transition more often than most; the principles you’ve shared are a great reference for the rest of us on how to be effective in a new environment.

dominotw 7y ago

> they’re asking for people to take positions and have opinions. Yes only positions and opinions that make them look good. For example, in a tech all hands. "Ask" questions like these 1. How did the upper management react to cost savings from initiative X. 2. How did vendor feel about us canceling their contract by building a cheaper home grown system that is saving us X million $ every year. 3. What is the strategy for filling out open positions faster. ( we are doing so good that we have way too many open positions) 4. "joke questions" , did CEO actually finish 50 pies in pie eating contest at the management retreat ,like he claims he did. also, consultants rarely get invited to these all hands in the first place.

izacus 7y ago
And what exactly did you / would you think to accomplish with these questions? Besides attempting to publicly humiliate people who're paying you and stroking your own ego? "Questions" like these put other people on defensive (which means they won't listen to you anymore) and mark you out as an a*hole (which means they won't listen to you at all). It's counterproductive. I'm always baffled how engineers don't get that: they can understand that you need to write "printf()" and not "abort()" to achieve printout, but can't understand simple rules on how to achieve results when interacting with other people?
- dominotw 7y ago
  > attempting to publicly humiliate people who're paying you No it's the opposite. How does highlighting millions of cost savings from CTO's initiative humiliate him? I am confused how you got that impression from my comment. what did i miss.
  - jt2190 7y ago
    Not the commenter, and I understood what you were getting at, however, your original post doesn’t specify who is being asked the questions. It’s implied you’re asking the CTO, but it’s never clearly stated. That said, this is a good reminder for everyone to “read generously”: If you read something that seems absurd, take a minute to make sure you’re not just misunderstanding the post. Posts often gloss over context, and so you should try to rebuild that context.

glitchc 7y ago

I’m disappointed with articles like this. If I wanted to be in sales, I wouldn’t be in engineering. Not everything is about marketing. Some people need to, and daresay, enjoy building things, otherwise nothing would ever get built. This salesification of all business strata is strictly an American phenomenon, and will eventually be the death of American industry. Already our major exports are media and pop culture that exemplify this phenomenon. Now engineers are supposed to market themselves? No wonder we don’t manufacture anything worth exporting anymore.