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'doctors can command incredibly high fees' Doctors in Canada and Australia charge as much or more than US doctors (within the context of a universal healthcare

'doctors can command incredibly high fees' Doctors in Canada and Australia charge as much or more than US doctors (within the context of a universal healthcare system). This is the most absurd scapegoating. If you want to look for excessive expenditure, I encourage you to look at: - The enormous glut of administrators including absurdly well paid CEOs which has expanded non-stop for the last 40 years. - The absurd profit margins and profiteering by the medical insurance industry. - The relentless rent-seeking by 'accreditation and certification' agencies like state medical licensing boards and subspecialty boards. - And at this stage we don't even need to begin talking about pharma and device companies.

jjoonathan 7y ago
Back in health care policy class we did a breakdown comparison against systems in other developed countries. The US system was 2x as expensive, and the three heads of the hydra -- drug companies, insurance companies, and hospitals/doctors -- did a remarkably even job of sharing that factor of 2. While it would be unfair to say that the "step on the training pipeline" hustle was entirely responsible for our current situation, it would also be unfair to point at the other two heads of the hydra and say that they were entirely responsible.
- neuro_image2 7y ago
  There's a lot to unpack in 'hospitals/doctors.' Again, a more granular analysis will point you in the direction of the layers and layers of administration and profiteering in the hospital rank and file. Have you seen this graph?: https://investingdoc.com/the-growth-of-administrators-in-health-care/ https://investingdoc.com/the-growth-of-administrators-in-hea... And again, very effective universal healthcare systems exist which remunerate physicians at the top end of the labour payment scale (and for good reason). Now with nurse practitioners and other 'mid-level providers' creeping into all areas of clinical medicine, Americans are unfortunately likely to find out the hard way why appropriately remunerating people who operate on those nearest and dearest to you at their most critical times, is a good idea.
  - neuro_image2 7y ago
    Also, there should be some limits to who gets to do highly specialized things. And I want those people to be highly incentivized. One of my co-fellows was an IV league valedictorian and national level athlete. I'm pleased and grateful someone that talented, dedicated and driven to the point of obsession is diagnosing and treating neurological disease (and not, say, improving advertising algorithms for amazon or google).
    - mtnGoat 7y ago
      Amen to this! Imagine if all the bright minds in SV, were looking to improve the world instead of enrich themselves and their overlords by any means necessary. However I don't think we should limit the number of anything, if are qualified and knowledgeable enough to do brain surgery, you should be allowed to. Not just because your family was rich enough to fund education or you were willing to foot the debt. Taking less profit out of education might help fix the doctor shortage.
      - neuro_image2 7y ago
        ' I don't think we should limit the number of anything, if are qualified and knowledgeable enough to do brain surgery, you should be allowed to.' Unfortunately that's just not how it works. I want the best people to do brain surgery(not everyone who can), just like if I'm running a formula one racing team, I really don't want every idiot who can barely drive a car cluttering the track.
        mtnGoat 7y ago
        i said qualified and knowledgeable. try to stay on topic :)
    - stale2002 7y ago
      > also, there should be some limits to who gets to do highly specialized things That limit exists. It is called supply and demand. There is no need to artificially limit this, if other people want to enter the market.
wolco 7y ago
Canadian Doctors have less freedom to order tests, capped fees. So you see strange workarounds. One strange rule is a doctor can only bill for one medical issue per day. So if you go in with a broken arm and the flu you only get to treat one condition and are forced to make a second appointment. So Canadian doctors order whatever tests they are allowed and don't order tests you actually need. It is 1000% easier to get a cat scan than an mri even when an mri would provide more details in certain cases. If they are allowed a certain test than they will say it's extremely important. If you point out other tests that could helpful those ideas are not well received. The whole thing has become some strange lineitem exercises where doctors are gaming the system because the government keeps changing the rules to pay them less so they find ways to fight back. There was a strange case where a doctor would give patients a drug to induce labour and give birth early. This allowed them to get over the quota of deliveries per month but there was a rule if the patient gave birth early they could go over the quota. After hundreds of early births the death rate was much higher for this one doctor.. this doctor was working for his own interests.
- elliekelly 7y ago
  > There was a strange case where a doctor would give patients a drug to induce labour and give birth early. It also allowed him to bill for Saturday deliveries which paid a higher rate. The story is well worth a read for anyone who missed it. Edit: This article[1] just provides a summary. This article[2] was the original investigative reporting. [1] https://www.thecut.com/2019/07/paul-shuen-toronto-medical-malpractice.html https://www.thecut.com/2019/07/paul-shuen-toronto-medical-ma... [2] https://torontolife.com/city/greed-betrayal-medical-misconduct-north-york-general/ https://torontolife.com/city/greed-betrayal-medical-miscondu...
  - pkaye 7y ago
    Seems like people find a way to game everything. Yesterday I was reading elsewhere about what happens in long term care facilities where patients are kept around for unnecessary procedures until the insurance runs out and which point they are pushed back to the hospital under pretense of some emergency.
Ididntdothis 7y ago
Yes, it's always the others that are the problem in the US system. If you went to any other of the groups you listed they would have the same list with the exception of themselves. In the end everybody makes too much money and is inefficient.
mdorazio 7y ago
I think you need to check your numbers. See [1]. GPs in the US make WAY more than anywhere else. Specialists are on par with Australia, but significantly higher than Canada. [1] https://journal.practicelink.com/vital-stats/physician-compensation-worldwide/ https://journal.practicelink.com/vital-stats/physician-compe...

jjoonathan 7y ago

Back in health care policy class we did a breakdown comparison against systems in other developed countries. The US system was 2x as expensive, and the three heads of the hydra -- drug companies, insurance companies, and hospitals/doctors -- did a remarkably even job of sharing that factor of 2. While it would be unfair to say that the "step on the training pipeline" hustle was entirely responsible for our current situation, it would also be unfair to point at the other two heads of the hydra and say that they were entirely responsible.

neuro_image2 7y ago
There's a lot to unpack in 'hospitals/doctors.' Again, a more granular analysis will point you in the direction of the layers and layers of administration and profiteering in the hospital rank and file. Have you seen this graph?: https://investingdoc.com/the-growth-of-administrators-in-health-care/ https://investingdoc.com/the-growth-of-administrators-in-hea... And again, very effective universal healthcare systems exist which remunerate physicians at the top end of the labour payment scale (and for good reason). Now with nurse practitioners and other 'mid-level providers' creeping into all areas of clinical medicine, Americans are unfortunately likely to find out the hard way why appropriately remunerating people who operate on those nearest and dearest to you at their most critical times, is a good idea.
- neuro_image2 7y ago
  Also, there should be some limits to who gets to do highly specialized things. And I want those people to be highly incentivized. One of my co-fellows was an IV league valedictorian and national level athlete. I'm pleased and grateful someone that talented, dedicated and driven to the point of obsession is diagnosing and treating neurological disease (and not, say, improving advertising algorithms for amazon or google).
  - mtnGoat 7y ago
    Amen to this! Imagine if all the bright minds in SV, were looking to improve the world instead of enrich themselves and their overlords by any means necessary. However I don't think we should limit the number of anything, if are qualified and knowledgeable enough to do brain surgery, you should be allowed to. Not just because your family was rich enough to fund education or you were willing to foot the debt. Taking less profit out of education might help fix the doctor shortage.
    - neuro_image2 7y ago
      ' I don't think we should limit the number of anything, if are qualified and knowledgeable enough to do brain surgery, you should be allowed to.' Unfortunately that's just not how it works. I want the best people to do brain surgery(not everyone who can), just like if I'm running a formula one racing team, I really don't want every idiot who can barely drive a car cluttering the track.
      - mtnGoat 7y ago
        i said qualified and knowledgeable. try to stay on topic :)
  - stale2002 7y ago
    > also, there should be some limits to who gets to do highly specialized things That limit exists. It is called supply and demand. There is no need to artificially limit this, if other people want to enter the market.

wolco 7y ago

Canadian Doctors have less freedom to order tests, capped fees. So you see strange workarounds. One strange rule is a doctor can only bill for one medical issue per day. So if you go in with a broken arm and the flu you only get to treat one condition and are forced to make a second appointment. So Canadian doctors order whatever tests they are allowed and don't order tests you actually need. It is 1000% easier to get a cat scan than an mri even when an mri would provide more details in certain cases. If they are allowed a certain test than they will say it's extremely important. If you point out other tests that could helpful those ideas are not well received. The whole thing has become some strange lineitem exercises where doctors are gaming the system because the government keeps changing the rules to pay them less so they find ways to fight back. There was a strange case where a doctor would give patients a drug to induce labour and give birth early. This allowed them to get over the quota of deliveries per month but there was a rule if the patient gave birth early they could go over the quota. After hundreds of early births the death rate was much higher for this one doctor.. this doctor was working for his own interests.

elliekelly 7y ago
> There was a strange case where a doctor would give patients a drug to induce labour and give birth early. It also allowed him to bill for Saturday deliveries which paid a higher rate. The story is well worth a read for anyone who missed it. Edit: This article[1] just provides a summary. This article[2] was the original investigative reporting. [1] https://www.thecut.com/2019/07/paul-shuen-toronto-medical-malpractice.html https://www.thecut.com/2019/07/paul-shuen-toronto-medical-ma... [2] https://torontolife.com/city/greed-betrayal-medical-misconduct-north-york-general/ https://torontolife.com/city/greed-betrayal-medical-miscondu...
- pkaye 7y ago
  Seems like people find a way to game everything. Yesterday I was reading elsewhere about what happens in long term care facilities where patients are kept around for unnecessary procedures until the insurance runs out and which point they are pushed back to the hospital under pretense of some emergency.

Ididntdothis 7y ago

Yes, it's always the others that are the problem in the US system. If you went to any other of the groups you listed they would have the same list with the exception of themselves. In the end everybody makes too much money and is inefficient.

mdorazio 7y ago

I think you need to check your numbers. See [1]. GPs in the US make WAY more than anywhere else. Specialists are on par with Australia, but significantly higher than Canada. [1] https://journal.practicelink.com/vital-stats/physician-compensation-worldwide/ https://journal.practicelink.com/vital-stats/physician-compe...