6 ms·

It seems the author also missed the fact orcs are perfectly alright with cannibalism, which further alleviates the supply problem, perhaps even to the point of

by dreen 7y ago

It seems the author also missed the fact orcs are perfectly alright with cannibalism, which further alleviates the supply problem, perhaps even to the point of not requiring the supplies at all (a few thousand orcs eaten along the way wont make much difference). I doubt this has much precedent in history.

fmoronzirfas 7y ago
I think orcs eating orcs only happens in the movies. In the books orcs don’t do that. What he missed is orcs eating human flesh
- dreen 7y ago
  Interesting, although the books indeed don't mention it I don't think it's entirely out of the question. from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(Middle-earth) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(Middle-earth) > Tolkien indicates that Orcs are "always hungry".[24] Orcs eat all manner of flesh, including men and horses, and there are frequent hints of cannibalism among Orcs. Grishnákh, leader of the Mordor Orcs, accuses Saruman's Uruks of eating Orc-flesh, which they angrily deny.[22] In Cirith Ungol, Gorbag suggests that Frodo (recently poisoned by Shelob) should "go in the pot"; Shagrat indicates that Gorbag could be "for the pot" for making such a suggestion.[25] Shagrat threatens to eat a disobedient orc, and after killing Gorbag he licks his blood from the blade.[26] The interesting part is Uruks "angrily denying" eating ork flesh which might mean it was an insult to suggest they do. Furthermore, https://middle-earth.xenite.org/what-do-orcs-eat https://middle-earth.xenite.org/what-do-orcs-eat says the books give some descriptions of orcish cooking. However, based on the overall attitude of orcs, I believe they would kill and eat each other to survive. But I think I was wrong to suggest that would be an acceptable solution to problem of long-term military supply logistics.
  - thaumasiotes 7y ago
    > Grishnákh, leader of the Mordor Orcs, accuses Saruman's Uruks of eating Orc-flesh, which they angrily deny. As you note, this is good evidence that cannibalism is not practiced by the orcs. > In Cirith Ungol, Gorbag suggests that Frodo (recently poisoned by Shelob) should "go in the pot"; Shagrat indicates that Gorbag could be "for the pot" for making such a suggestion. This isn't good evidence; the insult is suggested by the context. > Shagrat threatens to eat a disobedient orc Without some sort of context, this is good evidence that cannibalism is practiced. > and after killing Gorbag he licks his blood from the blade. But this isn't; blood licking is not unknown among humans either. (To be fair, neither is cannibalism, but they read pretty differently.)
    - firethief 7y ago
      >> Grishnákh, leader of the Mordor Orcs, accuses Saruman's Uruks of eating Orc-flesh, which they angrily deny. > As you note, this is good evidence that cannibalism is not practiced by the orcs. Institutionalized cannibalism is characterized by strict taboos about who can eat whom, when, and how. It would make sense for an insult between two related cannibalistic societies to be based on either "you fail to observe the taboos we both recognize" (a heavy put-down) or "you don't recognize our taboos / you have specifically disrespected us in the way you violated a shared taboo" (insults with deep roots; a likely casus belli). In either case, angry denial seems like an orcish way to counter the insult without escalating a potentially volatile situation. So while cannibalism-related insult is consistent with societies in which cannibalism is never acceptable, among societies where the practice is formalized absence of such insults might have been more surprising.
      - thaumasiotes 7y ago
        If the accusation is just "eating orc-flesh", the only cannibalistic taboo that would be violated by that unqualified act would be eating those who aren't members of your group. A practice of eating your own kind -- but not other people -- would be consistent with everything mentioned above, but would be incredibly bizarre for humans. We are much more likely to eat other groups while never eating our own. Orcs could be weird that way though. It's not hard to lay a basic conceptual foundation for eating your own kind and prohibiting other groups from eating your own kind.
        firethief 7y ago
        > If the accusation is just "eating orc-flesh", the only cannibalistic taboo that would be violated by that unqualified act would be eating those who aren't members of your group. No. For example, it may be unacceptable if the groups aren't at war. > A practice of eating your own kind -- but not other people -- would be consistent with everything mentioned above, but would be incredibly bizarre for humans. We are much more likely to eat other groups while never eating our own. Then humans are incredibly bizarre. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocannibalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocannibalism
  - wavefunction 7y ago
    Orcs were corrupted/mutated elves and uruk-hai were corrupted/mutated humans iirc but could be mistaken It wouldn't necessarily be cannibilism then.
    - zipwitch 7y ago
      That's a popular and oft-repeated conception, but not precisely canon. Tolkien was never able to definitively pin down the origin and nature of his orcs to his own satisfaction, and never reached any final decision, afaik.
      - baud147258 7y ago
        > Tolkien was never able to definitively pin down the origin and nature of his orcs to his own satisfaction I think I heard it was because of the Christian roots of his LotR writings: are orcs fully evil and impossible to redeem (which would go against Christian belief on salvation and some of the themes of the LotR) or could they be redeemed, which would be against how they are portrayed in the books.
arethuza 7y ago
It does remind slightly me of Amundsen's approach on his south pole expedition of killing dogs and feeding them to the men and the other dogs. Lord Curzon was rather rude to him about it.
- elygre 7y ago
  But to be blunt: who was Lord Curzon?
  - arethuza 7y ago
    This explains it: https://history.blog.gov.uk/2018/06/06/a-very-british-catastrophe-captain-robert-falcon-scotts-final-journey/ https://history.blog.gov.uk/2018/06/06/a-very-british-catast...
  - kubanczyk 7y ago
    Some British official. Probably best known as a namesake for the current eastern border of Poland (known as Curzon's line), of which he wasn't an architect or proponent.
    - zipwitch 7y ago
      In popular culture "Curzon" is probably most familiar to StarTrek:DS9 fans as Curzon Dax, the predecessor of the Jadzia Dax. https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Curzon_Dax https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Curzon_Dax (The character - a diplomat - was very clearly inspired by Lord Curzon.)
- gerikson 7y ago
  The British ideal of the noble defeat being better than the pragmatic victory is rather strange.
  - golergka 7y ago
    Almost any custom which seems strange when you take one encounter turns out to be perfectly reasonable when you take it in a context of repeated encounters with the same vis-a-vis. Having reputation for being noble, even in defeat, can have unique advantages.
pbhjpbhj 7y ago
> I doubt this has much precedent in history. // On the contrary I'd imagine there was a deal of precedent for it, but probably not well recorded. I've the vaguest recollection of inferences that crusaders in a North African situation resorted to cannibalism -- I'll have to look for the source on that.
barkingcat 7y ago
and that's how so many orcs were able to march all at once, they are eating as they march.
rossdavidh 7y ago
When the Uruk-hai bragged to the Mordor orcs that they were given man-flesh to eat, the Mordor orcs replied that it was really orc-flesh, and the Uruk-hai were offended. So, while it may have happened somewhere, at least both Mordor and Uruk-hai orcs considered the suggestion offensive.

by dreen 7y ago

fmoronzirfas 7y ago

I think orcs eating orcs only happens in the movies. In the books orcs don’t do that. What he missed is orcs eating human flesh

dreen 7y ago
Interesting, although the books indeed don't mention it I don't think it's entirely out of the question. from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(Middle-earth) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(Middle-earth) > Tolkien indicates that Orcs are "always hungry".[24] Orcs eat all manner of flesh, including men and horses, and there are frequent hints of cannibalism among Orcs. Grishnákh, leader of the Mordor Orcs, accuses Saruman's Uruks of eating Orc-flesh, which they angrily deny.[22] In Cirith Ungol, Gorbag suggests that Frodo (recently poisoned by Shelob) should "go in the pot"; Shagrat indicates that Gorbag could be "for the pot" for making such a suggestion.[25] Shagrat threatens to eat a disobedient orc, and after killing Gorbag he licks his blood from the blade.[26] The interesting part is Uruks "angrily denying" eating ork flesh which might mean it was an insult to suggest they do. Furthermore, https://middle-earth.xenite.org/what-do-orcs-eat https://middle-earth.xenite.org/what-do-orcs-eat says the books give some descriptions of orcish cooking. However, based on the overall attitude of orcs, I believe they would kill and eat each other to survive. But I think I was wrong to suggest that would be an acceptable solution to problem of long-term military supply logistics.
- thaumasiotes 7y ago
  > Grishnákh, leader of the Mordor Orcs, accuses Saruman's Uruks of eating Orc-flesh, which they angrily deny. As you note, this is good evidence that cannibalism is not practiced by the orcs. > In Cirith Ungol, Gorbag suggests that Frodo (recently poisoned by Shelob) should "go in the pot"; Shagrat indicates that Gorbag could be "for the pot" for making such a suggestion. This isn't good evidence; the insult is suggested by the context. > Shagrat threatens to eat a disobedient orc Without some sort of context, this is good evidence that cannibalism is practiced. > and after killing Gorbag he licks his blood from the blade. But this isn't; blood licking is not unknown among humans either. (To be fair, neither is cannibalism, but they read pretty differently.)
  - firethief 7y ago
    >> Grishnákh, leader of the Mordor Orcs, accuses Saruman's Uruks of eating Orc-flesh, which they angrily deny. > As you note, this is good evidence that cannibalism is not practiced by the orcs. Institutionalized cannibalism is characterized by strict taboos about who can eat whom, when, and how. It would make sense for an insult between two related cannibalistic societies to be based on either "you fail to observe the taboos we both recognize" (a heavy put-down) or "you don't recognize our taboos / you have specifically disrespected us in the way you violated a shared taboo" (insults with deep roots; a likely casus belli). In either case, angry denial seems like an orcish way to counter the insult without escalating a potentially volatile situation. So while cannibalism-related insult is consistent with societies in which cannibalism is never acceptable, among societies where the practice is formalized absence of such insults might have been more surprising.
    - thaumasiotes 7y ago
      If the accusation is just "eating orc-flesh", the only cannibalistic taboo that would be violated by that unqualified act would be eating those who aren't members of your group. A practice of eating your own kind -- but not other people -- would be consistent with everything mentioned above, but would be incredibly bizarre for humans. We are much more likely to eat other groups while never eating our own. Orcs could be weird that way though. It's not hard to lay a basic conceptual foundation for eating your own kind and prohibiting other groups from eating your own kind.
      - firethief 7y ago
        > If the accusation is just "eating orc-flesh", the only cannibalistic taboo that would be violated by that unqualified act would be eating those who aren't members of your group. No. For example, it may be unacceptable if the groups aren't at war. > A practice of eating your own kind -- but not other people -- would be consistent with everything mentioned above, but would be incredibly bizarre for humans. We are much more likely to eat other groups while never eating our own. Then humans are incredibly bizarre. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocannibalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocannibalism
- wavefunction 7y ago
  Orcs were corrupted/mutated elves and uruk-hai were corrupted/mutated humans iirc but could be mistaken It wouldn't necessarily be cannibilism then.
  - zipwitch 7y ago
    That's a popular and oft-repeated conception, but not precisely canon. Tolkien was never able to definitively pin down the origin and nature of his orcs to his own satisfaction, and never reached any final decision, afaik.
    - baud147258 7y ago
      > Tolkien was never able to definitively pin down the origin and nature of his orcs to his own satisfaction I think I heard it was because of the Christian roots of his LotR writings: are orcs fully evil and impossible to redeem (which would go against Christian belief on salvation and some of the themes of the LotR) or could they be redeemed, which would be against how they are portrayed in the books.

arethuza 7y ago

It does remind slightly me of Amundsen's approach on his south pole expedition of killing dogs and feeding them to the men and the other dogs. Lord Curzon was rather rude to him about it.

elygre 7y ago
But to be blunt: who was Lord Curzon?
- arethuza 7y ago
  This explains it: https://history.blog.gov.uk/2018/06/06/a-very-british-catastrophe-captain-robert-falcon-scotts-final-journey/ https://history.blog.gov.uk/2018/06/06/a-very-british-catast...
- kubanczyk 7y ago
  Some British official. Probably best known as a namesake for the current eastern border of Poland (known as Curzon's line), of which he wasn't an architect or proponent.
  - zipwitch 7y ago
    In popular culture "Curzon" is probably most familiar to StarTrek:DS9 fans as Curzon Dax, the predecessor of the Jadzia Dax. https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Curzon_Dax https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Curzon_Dax (The character - a diplomat - was very clearly inspired by Lord Curzon.)
gerikson 7y ago
The British ideal of the noble defeat being better than the pragmatic victory is rather strange.
- golergka 7y ago
  Almost any custom which seems strange when you take one encounter turns out to be perfectly reasonable when you take it in a context of repeated encounters with the same vis-a-vis. Having reputation for being noble, even in defeat, can have unique advantages.

pbhjpbhj 7y ago

> I doubt this has much precedent in history. // On the contrary I'd imagine there was a deal of precedent for it, but probably not well recorded. I've the vaguest recollection of inferences that crusaders in a North African situation resorted to cannibalism -- I'll have to look for the source on that.

barkingcat 7y ago

and that's how so many orcs were able to march all at once, they are eating as they march.

rossdavidh 7y ago

When the Uruk-hai bragged to the Mordor orcs that they were given man-flesh to eat, the Mordor orcs replied that it was really orc-flesh, and the Uruk-hai were offended. So, while it may have happened somewhere, at least both Mordor and Uruk-hai orcs considered the suggestion offensive.