4 ms·

I know of the tame silver fox experiment[0] (not wolf), and it wasn't forbidden. Are you referring to a different one? [0] http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160

I know of the tame silver fox experiment[0] (not wolf), and it wasn't forbidden. Are you referring to a different one? [0] http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160912-a-soviet-scientist-created-the-only-tame-foxes-in-the-world http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160912-a-soviet-scientist-c...

Fnoord 7y ago
My bad, it was a fox experiment, indeed. Regarding "banned", the article mentions: > The study of genetics had been essentially banned in the USSR, as the country's dictator Joseph Stalin sought to discredit the genetic principles set out by Gregor Mendel. Stalin's death in 1953 gave scientists more freedom, but in the early years Belyaev nevertheless worked under the cover that he was breeding foxes to make better fur coats. Also, it mentions 50 generations: > "The fox farm experiment was crucial, in that it told us that domestication can happen relatively quickly in the right circumstances," he says. "The fact that in fifty generations, they were wagging their tails and barking, this is really incredible."
- lowdose 7y ago
  Makes me wonder if we could do the same with a tiger.
  - weberc2 7y ago
    IIRC (from some documentary on the subject) canids are somewhat unique in their “genetic plasticity” (I don’t recall the precise term).
    - nradov 7y ago
      Dogs have 76 chromosomes whereas tigers (and most other cats) have only 38. That makes it far easier for breeders to target specific characteristics in dogs.
      - thrax 7y ago
        Wow TIL, very cool.
      - est31 7y ago
        Gene drives, allowing for non mendellian breeding, will revolutionize this.
- democracy 7y ago
  Even more: Stalin hated generic scientists so much that named a town after one of them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michurinsk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michurinsk
  - Grue3 7y ago
    Michurin's work was appropriated by the antiscientific ideology of Lysenkoism which Stalin favored. Also there are lots of places named after Michurin, for example there are multiple neighborhoods named "Michurin's gardens" in the city I'm from.
- 75dvtwin 7y ago
  They 'culled' (which means killed) the animals that were not tame enough. And continued doing it for 40 years, it seems. this is a kind of experiment I would have prohibited totally. "... Only those foxes that showed tolerance for the nearness of people were selected and bred to produce the next generation, while fearful or aggressive animals were culled. ..." https://slate.com/technology/2012/03/domesticated-foxes-in-siberia-an-experiment-in-peril.html https://slate.com/technology/2012/03/domesticated-foxes-in-s...
  - Fnoord 7y ago
    Thank you for mentioning that. I got part of this story from a Dutch book "De meeste mensen deugen" by Rutger Bergman. > this is a kind of experiment I would have prohibited totally. You mean it'd be prohibited or that you'd prohibit it? What we do hourly to the population of chicken and cow is much more violent and genocidal than the culling you mention. It serves no scientific purpose either; only because 1) we've grown accustomed to eating so much meat 2) there are so many humans on Earth.
  - mkl 7y ago
    Not exactly. They bred an aggressive population alongside the tame one, and it's now 60 years: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/2018/08/fox-dogs-wild-tame-genetics-study-news/ https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/2018/08/fox-dogs-... "Researchers have bred more than 40 generations of friendly and aggressive foxes." I read a really interesting article mainly about the aggressive ones, but I just spent a few minutes looking for it unsuccessfully.
  - saiya-jin 7y ago
    Hiding the research as breeding 'better' foxes for fur is fine with you? That's what those culled have been used for. Now we can discuss whether such an approach is immoral on its own, but we should probably get off our high modern horses and judge things from perspective of given era. And breeding animals for fur was totally acceptable. In fact, it still is in all countries on earth and for some time will be. Btw are you vegan to have at least some grounds to claim any moral superiority to that research?

Fnoord 7y ago

My bad, it was a fox experiment, indeed. Regarding "banned", the article mentions: > The study of genetics had been essentially banned in the USSR, as the country's dictator Joseph Stalin sought to discredit the genetic principles set out by Gregor Mendel. Stalin's death in 1953 gave scientists more freedom, but in the early years Belyaev nevertheless worked under the cover that he was breeding foxes to make better fur coats. Also, it mentions 50 generations: > "The fox farm experiment was crucial, in that it told us that domestication can happen relatively quickly in the right circumstances," he says. "The fact that in fifty generations, they were wagging their tails and barking, this is really incredible."

lowdose 7y ago
Makes me wonder if we could do the same with a tiger.
- weberc2 7y ago
  IIRC (from some documentary on the subject) canids are somewhat unique in their “genetic plasticity” (I don’t recall the precise term).
  - nradov 7y ago
    Dogs have 76 chromosomes whereas tigers (and most other cats) have only 38. That makes it far easier for breeders to target specific characteristics in dogs.
    - thrax 7y ago
      Wow TIL, very cool.
    - est31 7y ago
      Gene drives, allowing for non mendellian breeding, will revolutionize this.
democracy 7y ago
Even more: Stalin hated generic scientists so much that named a town after one of them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michurinsk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michurinsk
- Grue3 7y ago
  Michurin's work was appropriated by the antiscientific ideology of Lysenkoism which Stalin favored. Also there are lots of places named after Michurin, for example there are multiple neighborhoods named "Michurin's gardens" in the city I'm from.
75dvtwin 7y ago
They 'culled' (which means killed) the animals that were not tame enough. And continued doing it for 40 years, it seems. this is a kind of experiment I would have prohibited totally. "... Only those foxes that showed tolerance for the nearness of people were selected and bred to produce the next generation, while fearful or aggressive animals were culled. ..." https://slate.com/technology/2012/03/domesticated-foxes-in-siberia-an-experiment-in-peril.html https://slate.com/technology/2012/03/domesticated-foxes-in-s...
- Fnoord 7y ago
  Thank you for mentioning that. I got part of this story from a Dutch book "De meeste mensen deugen" by Rutger Bergman. > this is a kind of experiment I would have prohibited totally. You mean it'd be prohibited or that you'd prohibit it? What we do hourly to the population of chicken and cow is much more violent and genocidal than the culling you mention. It serves no scientific purpose either; only because 1) we've grown accustomed to eating so much meat 2) there are so many humans on Earth.
- mkl 7y ago
  Not exactly. They bred an aggressive population alongside the tame one, and it's now 60 years: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/2018/08/fox-dogs-wild-tame-genetics-study-news/ https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/2018/08/fox-dogs-... "Researchers have bred more than 40 generations of friendly and aggressive foxes." I read a really interesting article mainly about the aggressive ones, but I just spent a few minutes looking for it unsuccessfully.
- saiya-jin 7y ago
  Hiding the research as breeding 'better' foxes for fur is fine with you? That's what those culled have been used for. Now we can discuss whether such an approach is immoral on its own, but we should probably get off our high modern horses and judge things from perspective of given era. And breeding animals for fur was totally acceptable. In fact, it still is in all countries on earth and for some time will be. Btw are you vegan to have at least some grounds to claim any moral superiority to that research?