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We won't. You can't force me to contribute to your project and if it has such a coc I just won't.

by dbdjfjrjvebd 7y ago

thundergolfer 7y ago
? I'm very confused. "coc" is a "Code of Conduct" document right? How is that you're opposed to CoC _in general_?
- dbdjfjrjvebd 7y ago
  Because reasonable people already know how to behave and don't need a document to tell them. I've never seen a case where a coc improved software.
  - voxl 7y ago
    The Rust compiler. There is your example.
    - dbdjfjrjvebd 7y ago
      What was happening that the coc helped with?
  - viraptor 7y ago
    And people "know" not to steal. Yet we need to have laws so we agree on rules and boundaries. You can think of it like a list of rules agreed on early, so the project leaders don't have to go through the arguments about what's accepted after someone crosses one person's boundaries, but not another's.
    - dbdjfjrjvebd 7y ago
      If someone steals from another project member or breaks other laws the police should be called.
      - viraptor 7y ago
        Stealing was used here as a specific example why laws are written, not CoC. I think you missed the point of my comment.
        dbdjfjrjvebd 7y ago
        Nope I understand your point. But I disagree with you.
    - belorn 7y ago
      The core principle of laws is that they are common and enforced equally onto every citizen. Laws and enforcement are transparent and has check and balances. The most common objection to CoC is that they are not enforced equally. Different classes of people get treated differently and enjoy different rights. The enforcement have no transparency and no check and balances. To take two recent well known examples, we had during the last year the stackoverlfow controversy over the new CoC, and wikipedia ban of an admin over CoC. In both cases there were major issue of transparency and selective enforcement. In the wikipedia case there was also problem with lack of check and balances. In the stackoverflow case there was also voices raised about other common rules now being unenforced in order to comply with the CoC creating a situation where different people get enforced by different rules. Laws can be good. Rules and Boundaries can be a positive thing. They are not all good, not all positive. It depend. Without careful process and system for fairness it is very likely to turn bad as the above examples illustrates.
      - viraptor 7y ago
        You're raising good points regarding consistent enforcement and transparency, but I think they're orthogonal to the existence of CoC. You can have transparent handling of issues without preexisting rules. You can have rules with bad/no implementation. Sure, some CoC rules may be not great. But having some rules written down at least indicates leaders thought about the problem.
  - devnonymous 7y ago
    > Because reasonable people already know how /letting people use/modify/redistribute modifications is good for software/ and don't need a /license/ to tell them. I've never seen a case where a /copyleft license/ improved software. Don't you see the absurdity of the argument ?
    - dbdjfjrjvebd 7y ago
      If we didn't have copyright law then your comparison would make sense.
      - devnonymous 7y ago
        ... And if people were truly reasonable then your original statement would make sense.
        dbdjfjrjvebd 7y ago
        People don't have a legal duty to act unreasonably. In your analogy they would...
jachee 7y ago
Sounds like your contributions won't be missed, and that the CoC is working as intended.
- dbdjfjrjvebd 7y ago
  If by intended you mean driving away reasonable people that want to make software not get involved in politically motivated drama and moral panics then yes.
  - jachee 7y ago
    Reasonable people treat others with respect, humanity and humility. Reasonable people will have no problem with mandating such treatment of all contributors. Reasonable people won’t let their ego force them to oppose respectful conduct simply because it’s codified. Reasonable people don’t believe their technical prowess entitles them to be dicks. Seems reasonable, eh?
    - username90 7y ago
      I like that we have a police and I've never committed a crime, but having a police around still makes me nervous since they have a lot of power. CoC's have the same effect, any reasonable person would understand this. They make contributing to a project feel more like a job and less like casual fun, and I don't really see why I would spend my free time doing a job for free.
    - dbdjfjrjvebd 7y ago
      Ironically I would probably not violate a coc. But I won't ever know because I won't do volunteer work in my free time under such conditions.
- DarkWiiPlayer 7y ago
  I'm confused now. Are you saying A) that OP doesn't have any know-how to contribute to the project, and you deduce that from their political views, or B) that, no matter how much OP may contribute on a technical level, it's meaningless if their political views don't align with yours? In either case, I suggest you stop using the internet. It mostly runs on (GNU/)Linux servers, which were strongly influenced by RMS who you probably disagree with, so none of that can be any good for you.
yozel 7y ago
Most CoCs are like “Thou shalt not kill” or more like “Thou shalt be an asshole”. How is it even possible to not agree with that?
- IshKebab 7y ago
  They go a bit further than that, for example the second result in Google for "open source code of conduct" is this one: https://www.contributor-covenant.org/version/2/0/code_of_conduct https://www.contributor-covenant.org/version/2/0/code_of_con... It includes things like: * The use of sexualized language * insulting or derogatory comments * Other conduct which could reasonably be considered inappropriate in a professional setting Obviously on the face of it these are extremely reasonable. The problem is that they are also extremely vague. Is it ok to say "fuck" in a comment? Or is that "sexualized language"? Can I say "this code is stupid" or is that too insulting? What if it isn't directed at anyone? The fear is that there is a certain kind of person who loves picking people up over these sort of inconsequential rule ("social justice warriors"). For some reason they like to get into positions of power and then enforce petty rules. I don't think that happens 99% of the time, but it does seem like CoCs encourage it and I've never seen evidence that extensive CoCs help so why bother? Just put a comment in your readme like you suggested - "CoC: Thou shalt not be an asshole."
  - psv1 7y ago
    Even if we agree with everything in your comment, the question is "Is the <1% of the time this happens a good enough reason the reject every project with a CoC?". Personally, I would answer no to this.
    - username90 7y ago
      CoC's are inherently political, they say something about the people you have to deal with when contributing to the project. If you like that kind of people you'd see a CoC as a positive, but if you don't like them then you'd avoid CoC's. I don't see why this is so hard to understand.

We won't. You can't force me to contribute to your project and if it has such a coc I just won't.

thundergolfer 7y ago

? I'm very confused. "coc" is a "Code of Conduct" document right? How is that you're opposed to CoC _in general_?

dbdjfjrjvebd 7y ago
Because reasonable people already know how to behave and don't need a document to tell them. I've never seen a case where a coc improved software.
- voxl 7y ago
  The Rust compiler. There is your example.
  - dbdjfjrjvebd 7y ago
    What was happening that the coc helped with?
- viraptor 7y ago
  And people "know" not to steal. Yet we need to have laws so we agree on rules and boundaries. You can think of it like a list of rules agreed on early, so the project leaders don't have to go through the arguments about what's accepted after someone crosses one person's boundaries, but not another's.
  - dbdjfjrjvebd 7y ago
    If someone steals from another project member or breaks other laws the police should be called.
    - viraptor 7y ago
      Stealing was used here as a specific example why laws are written, not CoC. I think you missed the point of my comment.
      - dbdjfjrjvebd 7y ago
        Nope I understand your point. But I disagree with you.
  - belorn 7y ago
    The core principle of laws is that they are common and enforced equally onto every citizen. Laws and enforcement are transparent and has check and balances. The most common objection to CoC is that they are not enforced equally. Different classes of people get treated differently and enjoy different rights. The enforcement have no transparency and no check and balances. To take two recent well known examples, we had during the last year the stackoverlfow controversy over the new CoC, and wikipedia ban of an admin over CoC. In both cases there were major issue of transparency and selective enforcement. In the wikipedia case there was also problem with lack of check and balances. In the stackoverflow case there was also voices raised about other common rules now being unenforced in order to comply with the CoC creating a situation where different people get enforced by different rules. Laws can be good. Rules and Boundaries can be a positive thing. They are not all good, not all positive. It depend. Without careful process and system for fairness it is very likely to turn bad as the above examples illustrates.
    - viraptor 7y ago
      You're raising good points regarding consistent enforcement and transparency, but I think they're orthogonal to the existence of CoC. You can have transparent handling of issues without preexisting rules. You can have rules with bad/no implementation. Sure, some CoC rules may be not great. But having some rules written down at least indicates leaders thought about the problem.
- devnonymous 7y ago
  > Because reasonable people already know how /letting people use/modify/redistribute modifications is good for software/ and don't need a /license/ to tell them. I've never seen a case where a /copyleft license/ improved software. Don't you see the absurdity of the argument ?
  - dbdjfjrjvebd 7y ago
    If we didn't have copyright law then your comparison would make sense.
    - devnonymous 7y ago
      ... And if people were truly reasonable then your original statement would make sense.
      - dbdjfjrjvebd 7y ago
        People don't have a legal duty to act unreasonably. In your analogy they would...

jachee 7y ago

Sounds like your contributions won't be missed, and that the CoC is working as intended.

dbdjfjrjvebd 7y ago
If by intended you mean driving away reasonable people that want to make software not get involved in politically motivated drama and moral panics then yes.
- jachee 7y ago
  Reasonable people treat others with respect, humanity and humility. Reasonable people will have no problem with mandating such treatment of all contributors. Reasonable people won’t let their ego force them to oppose respectful conduct simply because it’s codified. Reasonable people don’t believe their technical prowess entitles them to be dicks. Seems reasonable, eh?
  - username90 7y ago
    I like that we have a police and I've never committed a crime, but having a police around still makes me nervous since they have a lot of power. CoC's have the same effect, any reasonable person would understand this. They make contributing to a project feel more like a job and less like casual fun, and I don't really see why I would spend my free time doing a job for free.
  - dbdjfjrjvebd 7y ago
    Ironically I would probably not violate a coc. But I won't ever know because I won't do volunteer work in my free time under such conditions.
DarkWiiPlayer 7y ago
I'm confused now. Are you saying A) that OP doesn't have any know-how to contribute to the project, and you deduce that from their political views, or B) that, no matter how much OP may contribute on a technical level, it's meaningless if their political views don't align with yours? In either case, I suggest you stop using the internet. It mostly runs on (GNU/)Linux servers, which were strongly influenced by RMS who you probably disagree with, so none of that can be any good for you.

yozel 7y ago

Most CoCs are like “Thou shalt not kill” or more like “Thou shalt be an asshole”. How is it even possible to not agree with that?

IshKebab 7y ago
They go a bit further than that, for example the second result in Google for "open source code of conduct" is this one: https://www.contributor-covenant.org/version/2/0/code_of_conduct https://www.contributor-covenant.org/version/2/0/code_of_con... It includes things like: * The use of sexualized language * insulting or derogatory comments * Other conduct which could reasonably be considered inappropriate in a professional setting Obviously on the face of it these are extremely reasonable. The problem is that they are also extremely vague. Is it ok to say "fuck" in a comment? Or is that "sexualized language"? Can I say "this code is stupid" or is that too insulting? What if it isn't directed at anyone? The fear is that there is a certain kind of person who loves picking people up over these sort of inconsequential rule ("social justice warriors"). For some reason they like to get into positions of power and then enforce petty rules. I don't think that happens 99% of the time, but it does seem like CoCs encourage it and I've never seen evidence that extensive CoCs help so why bother? Just put a comment in your readme like you suggested - "CoC: Thou shalt not be an asshole."
- psv1 7y ago
  Even if we agree with everything in your comment, the question is "Is the <1% of the time this happens a good enough reason the reject every project with a CoC?". Personally, I would answer no to this.
  - username90 7y ago
    CoC's are inherently political, they say something about the people you have to deal with when contributing to the project. If you like that kind of people you'd see a CoC as a positive, but if you don't like them then you'd avoid CoC's. I don't see why this is so hard to understand.