3 ms·

No, halting climate change is actually impossible. All you need in order to understand this is elementary physics (conservation of energy, etc) and critical th

No, halting climate change is actually impossible. All you need in order to understand this is elementary physics (conservation of energy, etc) and critical thinking. This isn’t my opinion, we have known this —by this I mean, science, not voodoo— for many years, probably a decade or more.

Cthulhu_ 7y ago
You're making a claim but you're not substantiating it, could you elaborate what you're referring to exactly?
- meiraleal 7y ago
  There is no need to substantiate it, it is plain pure logic. The climate will always change. We can influence it a bit, but definitely a lot less than we having giving ourselves credit for. More than that, we don't have enough data to understand how the climate would change by itself, without human influence. The same way there is night and day, winter and summer, planet Earth might be subject to other climate variations that we don't have a clue. One thing I know for sure: if the population is growing, the Earth is becoming better for human-life, not worse. I'll be concerned about climate change when the population starts to shrink but we are way far from that.
  - glial 7y ago
    Obligatory (for you) xkcd: https://xkcd.com/1732/ https://xkcd.com/1732/
  - take_a_breath 7y ago
    == We can influence it a bit, but definitely a lot less than we having giving ourselves credit for. More than that, we don't have enough data to understand how the climate would change by itself, without human influence. == This logic seems completely contradictory. At first you argue that we can’t really influence climate, then you concede that we have no idea of our impact on it. Can you further explain?
  - Brometheus 7y ago
    https://grist.org/series/skeptics/ https://grist.org/series/skeptics/
    - greggman2 7y ago
      That's a great page but I didn't see this particular objection covered. Maybe your point was it's "yet another false argument"?
  - Supermancho 7y ago
    > if the population is growing, the Earth is becoming better for human-life That isnt logical, casting doubt on your absolute claims. Population growth in animals is relative to available resources not some mythical quality that can be interpreted as "better environment".
    - meiraleal 7y ago
      > Population growth in animals is relative to available resources You said the same as me, with different words. That's it. When did humans have so much spare time to be discussing imaginary problems online? And getting so offended when someone disagree that these imaginary problems will cause our doom.
    - thedaemon 7y ago
      Population growth in animals is not just available resources, climate, location, and many other factors play their parts. Stating that the person to whom you were replying to was equating "mythical" qualities to their brief description is as much of a stretch as your "available resources". What I mean is, in their brevity they were not 100% detailed on what "Earth becoming better" actually is. Just as your "available resources" falls short. What kind of resources are you meaning? We can all pick nit's but lets try to be civil.
      - Supermancho 7y ago
        I disagree. Earth becoming better, would be ludicrously tested by removing all but a small population of humans and comparing survival rates between a given time period and now. The Earth, itself, is not "becoming better" in any human sense. The statement was a fantastic statement, which also meant it was unqualified. > Population growth in animals is not just available resources, climate, location, and many other factors play their parts. Habitable area is a resource, which species compete for. There is a generous interpretation of my statement, but there isn't one of a "Earth is better", that makes sense. The commensurate appeal to logical thought was rightly pointed out as hypocritical. I stand by it.
- jdjdjjsjs 7y ago
  Well when you take the words climate change literally and ignore what it means in context, yeah, you're absolutely right. But then you're also revealing yourself as a dishonest participant who is probably not worth discussing this issue witb
- Jamwinner 7y ago
  The climate is not static. The conclusion that manmade factors are accelerating it does not perclude the slow warming phenomenon already in effect. Nonetheless, you are arguing past each other. The answer, is no matter how much is, or is not man-made, we stand to profit as a species if we combat what we can without causing greater harm by proxy.
- robomartin 7y ago
  I've written about this before. Substantiating my claim is easy. Here you go: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21649195 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21649195 BTW, this IS NOT my opinion. We have known this for probably a decade, if not more. The problem is that the masses are being brainwashed with lies on both ends of the spectrum. One end claims there is no such thing as human-caused climate change (which is false) and the other that we can actually fix it (which is also false).
  - Zanni 7y ago
    You're assuming passive measures only (stop producing more atmospheric carbon) and ignoring active measures (carbon scrubbing, carbon recapture). I haven't examined your math in detail, but I'm willing to stipulate that you're right that passive measures are wholly inadequate to address climate change. But then you may still be wildly wrong by not addressing active measures.
    - robomartin 7y ago
      Active measures will not work either. Again, Conservation of Energy. It takes more energy and resources to change something than what went into creating the problem in the first place. Once again, the data shows this clearly; without humanity around it took twice as long for a 100 ppm drop than the same increase. This is common sense, requiring only basic physics principles. Simple analogy: Burn a cubic meter of wood inside a warehouse large enough that the flames will not burn it down. How much energy is required to clean the warehouse from all the particulate matter on every surface, shelf, box, counter, light, crevice, etc? The answer is: Far more than the energy that went into creating the mess in the first place. This is not meant to be a perfect analogy, of course. All it is meant to illustrate is that we cannot “clean” the atmosphere with less energy than what created the problem. In fact, we need more energy, lots more. Given that we are talking about an unimaginably large amount if energy and resources it is easy to conclude this is nowhere near possible. My concern is that we are going to cause more damage than good. BTW, this does not mean we should not clean-up our act across the board. It simply means we need to stop using climate change as a political battering ram to push these things through.

Cthulhu_ 7y ago

You're making a claim but you're not substantiating it, could you elaborate what you're referring to exactly?

meiraleal 7y ago
There is no need to substantiate it, it is plain pure logic. The climate will always change. We can influence it a bit, but definitely a lot less than we having giving ourselves credit for. More than that, we don't have enough data to understand how the climate would change by itself, without human influence. The same way there is night and day, winter and summer, planet Earth might be subject to other climate variations that we don't have a clue. One thing I know for sure: if the population is growing, the Earth is becoming better for human-life, not worse. I'll be concerned about climate change when the population starts to shrink but we are way far from that.
- glial 7y ago
  Obligatory (for you) xkcd: https://xkcd.com/1732/ https://xkcd.com/1732/
- take_a_breath 7y ago
  == We can influence it a bit, but definitely a lot less than we having giving ourselves credit for. More than that, we don't have enough data to understand how the climate would change by itself, without human influence. == This logic seems completely contradictory. At first you argue that we can’t really influence climate, then you concede that we have no idea of our impact on it. Can you further explain?
- Brometheus 7y ago
  https://grist.org/series/skeptics/ https://grist.org/series/skeptics/
  - greggman2 7y ago
    That's a great page but I didn't see this particular objection covered. Maybe your point was it's "yet another false argument"?
- Supermancho 7y ago
  > if the population is growing, the Earth is becoming better for human-life That isnt logical, casting doubt on your absolute claims. Population growth in animals is relative to available resources not some mythical quality that can be interpreted as "better environment".
  - meiraleal 7y ago
    > Population growth in animals is relative to available resources You said the same as me, with different words. That's it. When did humans have so much spare time to be discussing imaginary problems online? And getting so offended when someone disagree that these imaginary problems will cause our doom.
  - thedaemon 7y ago
    Population growth in animals is not just available resources, climate, location, and many other factors play their parts. Stating that the person to whom you were replying to was equating "mythical" qualities to their brief description is as much of a stretch as your "available resources". What I mean is, in their brevity they were not 100% detailed on what "Earth becoming better" actually is. Just as your "available resources" falls short. What kind of resources are you meaning? We can all pick nit's but lets try to be civil.
    - Supermancho 7y ago
      I disagree. Earth becoming better, would be ludicrously tested by removing all but a small population of humans and comparing survival rates between a given time period and now. The Earth, itself, is not "becoming better" in any human sense. The statement was a fantastic statement, which also meant it was unqualified. > Population growth in animals is not just available resources, climate, location, and many other factors play their parts. Habitable area is a resource, which species compete for. There is a generous interpretation of my statement, but there isn't one of a "Earth is better", that makes sense. The commensurate appeal to logical thought was rightly pointed out as hypocritical. I stand by it.
jdjdjjsjs 7y ago
Well when you take the words climate change literally and ignore what it means in context, yeah, you're absolutely right. But then you're also revealing yourself as a dishonest participant who is probably not worth discussing this issue witb
Jamwinner 7y ago
The climate is not static. The conclusion that manmade factors are accelerating it does not perclude the slow warming phenomenon already in effect. Nonetheless, you are arguing past each other. The answer, is no matter how much is, or is not man-made, we stand to profit as a species if we combat what we can without causing greater harm by proxy.
robomartin 7y ago
I've written about this before. Substantiating my claim is easy. Here you go: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21649195 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21649195 BTW, this IS NOT my opinion. We have known this for probably a decade, if not more. The problem is that the masses are being brainwashed with lies on both ends of the spectrum. One end claims there is no such thing as human-caused climate change (which is false) and the other that we can actually fix it (which is also false).
- Zanni 7y ago
  You're assuming passive measures only (stop producing more atmospheric carbon) and ignoring active measures (carbon scrubbing, carbon recapture). I haven't examined your math in detail, but I'm willing to stipulate that you're right that passive measures are wholly inadequate to address climate change. But then you may still be wildly wrong by not addressing active measures.
  - robomartin 7y ago
    Active measures will not work either. Again, Conservation of Energy. It takes more energy and resources to change something than what went into creating the problem in the first place. Once again, the data shows this clearly; without humanity around it took twice as long for a 100 ppm drop than the same increase. This is common sense, requiring only basic physics principles. Simple analogy: Burn a cubic meter of wood inside a warehouse large enough that the flames will not burn it down. How much energy is required to clean the warehouse from all the particulate matter on every surface, shelf, box, counter, light, crevice, etc? The answer is: Far more than the energy that went into creating the mess in the first place. This is not meant to be a perfect analogy, of course. All it is meant to illustrate is that we cannot “clean” the atmosphere with less energy than what created the problem. In fact, we need more energy, lots more. Given that we are talking about an unimaginably large amount if energy and resources it is easy to conclude this is nowhere near possible. My concern is that we are going to cause more damage than good. BTW, this does not mean we should not clean-up our act across the board. It simply means we need to stop using climate change as a political battering ram to push these things through.