21 ms·

Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

428 points by mzs 7y ago

anfilt 7y ago
First China and now Russia. Come on apple, I don't like seeing placation or appeasement like this.
mzs 7y ago
Anyone know how to check these from different locations? I'm curious about how Transnistria is treated from Moldova, Romania, Ukraine, and Russia. >Google, which also produces a popular Maps app, does not show Crimea as belonging to either Russia or Ukraine on its maps. >However, it uses the Russian spelling of Crimean place names on its maps in Russia, rather than the Ukrainian spelling.
- hmage 7y ago
  https://i.imgur.com/2HaIhPh.jpg https://i.imgur.com/2HaIhPh.jpg Ukrainian users see a state/province border (top image) German users see a disputed international boundary (middle image) Russian users see an undisputed international boundary and Russian spellings of city names (bottom image). (and I think there are generally no borders shown in the oceans)
ir77 7y ago
i'm a big fan of apple products and definitely bought into apple's stance -- but now i'm starting to think it's nothing more than a convenient branding campaign that only works in the USA. all these aspects that apple markets in the USA seem to be completely negotiable anywhere in the world, and i wonder how long before they can also become negotiable in the USA. in the USA, because of fairly well established democracy and general freedom of speech apple is able to push back on government "requests" blatantly in the open and use this openness to their advantage. everywhere else where no such transparency exists because the government completely controls the communication medium these pushbacks simply don't happen -- apple really has no interest of ever stepping out on a limb if that limb will cost them calculated market share. it's really sad because they as a company are speaking/acting out of both of their ends, depending on the convenience of the local market. it's convenient and possible to push back in the USA, it's convenient and impossible to push back with other totalitarian regimes so they fold.
- S_A_P 7y ago
  I gotta say this is a pretty weak move on apples part. If apple really wants to be a cultural force, hard decisions must be made. Bowing to any government leader in any country is a slippery slope.
  - ir77 7y ago
    the problem is that even if i had a knee jerk reaction (i slightly did ;) ) and said 1)i should take a stance against apple 2) google is not an alternative -- what are my options? i can try to hack together some lineageOS device or something else, which will ruin the camera experience for me -- probably the most important feature of my smartphone for me. on top of that, i'll still have to rely on google for map /traffic data as i'm not aware of any other well established alternatives -- but what's worse is that i'm still in the USA and while google shows me a free and liberated map of a world it obviously can be showing someone in russia/iran/china something completely different and 'local' to them. how does one really fight this?
    - soperj 7y ago
      here maps. It's nokia. They're great. Not quite as good as google's offering, but better than apples.
      - reaperducer 7y ago
        How does it handle the Crimea question?
      - ilkkao 7y ago
        It was Nokia to be precise. Nokia sold it to AUDI, BMW and Daimler in 2015
        soperj 7y ago
        Missed that some how. Thanks. Looks like other have come on board as well now.
eznoonze 7y ago
What a world we live in! Each country gets its own version of alternative reality.
- hollander 7y ago
  It should be marked as disputed, from both sides, like "agreed to disagree". Think what would happen if the UK took back Hong Kong, or if Hong Kong declared itself independent. We - westerners - would all love that and accept it immediately. Would we have a problem then with Apple if they showed HK as a separate country?
  - pjc50 7y ago
    You might want to have a look at Taiwan.
  - nmeofthestate 7y ago
    "It should be marked as disputed" That's not how international law works. By all means maps may be tailored to suit the preferences of markets/countries, but military conquest of a territory doesn't convert it to a "disputed" status. Currently the internationally-recognised borders between Ukraine/Russia are well-defined. > We - westerners - would all love [the UK invading and annexing Hong Kong] and accept it immediately. What rot!
    - gnode 7y ago
      Both Russia and Ukraine claim the territory of Crimea, and it is therefore disputed. > but military conquest of a territory doesn't convert it to a "disputed" status. Many territories are disputed without conflict. If military conquest, occupation and de facto control of a territory doesn't reify a dispute, then nothing does. For examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_territorial_disputes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_territorial_disputes
- gmueckl 7y ago
  That's not a new thing. Maps have been political for ages. Mandating the shape of border lines on maps has been a part of many border disputes. Also, it's eye opening to read or watch news from other countries. There's a big country-specific bias in the selection of international news stories. This bias is a necessary evil, but it can have a huge political and cultural impact.
yardie 7y ago
This probably happens a lot more than you realize. Border and geographic name disputes can get very political and potentially violent. Off the top of my head: * Persian/Arabian Gulf * Palestine/Israel * Western Sahara/Morocco * Kashmir
- pjc50 7y ago
  Nagorno-Karabakh. Even Kosovo isn't really settled, and is probably the easiest one for a European to reach.
- izacus 7y ago
  Kosovo and Macedonia could also be added to that list. Not to mention myriad of minor border disputes pretty much everywhere across the world.
- duskwuff 7y ago
  Another big one: naming of oceans in southeast Asia. There's the South China Sea / West Philipppine Sea, for example, or the Sea of Japan / Sea of Korea / East Sea.
- improbable22 7y ago
  * Antarctica! Every map you see in Chile & Argentina includes a large pie-slice of the continent... and pretty close to being the same pie slice as each other's. Not to mention some islands which one of them tried to take over, once upon a time.
- Freak_NL 7y ago
  * The Netherlands/Germany https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=10/53.4786/6.6982 https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=10/53.4786/6.6982 Note the overlapping borders that makes a bit of sea part of both countries. This is strictly a non-violent matter of differing border interpretations though, with almost no judicial or maritime consequences.
cpursley 7y ago
> However, it uses the Russian spelling of Crimean place names on its maps in Russia, rather than the Ukrainian spelling. The vast majority of people in Crimea are Russian speakers (as well as being ethnically Russian). It's been that way since the Russian Empire conquered the peninsula from the Ottomans in 1783. In fact, there's nearly as many Tartar (descendents of Ottomans) speakers in Crimea than Ukrainian. Last time I was there (early this year), I saw a number of new mosques under construction. I'm not justifying the recent annexation, just noting the linguist realities on the ground. Also, politics aside, if you ever have the chance to visit, do it. The peninsula is very beautiful and there's lots of interesting geographical features and historical sights to see. Also, the infrastructure has improved significantly since the Russian takeover (unfortunately Ukraine being poor, neglected the peninsula after the collapse of the USSR) so getting around is easier now. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#demographics https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#demographics
- polski-g 7y ago
  The majority of the people in Crimea are and were Russian at the time of vote for annexation. It makes sense that genetic Russians would want to reunite with their people.
  - jevgeni 7y ago
    Oh wow... "Jedem das Seine", right? /s
  - keymone 7y ago
    First, you’re conflating language with national identity here, second you’re completely ignoring Crimean tatars that we’re repressed and mass deported from Crimea by Stalin, third you’re not making any sense anyway, because just because major chunk of local population wants to secede - can’t be ground for annexation and starting war, that’s just idiotic.
    - polski-g 7y ago
      The Ukrainian/Russian mainland war is a separate issue from Russians living in Crimea wanting to be reunited with their countrymen.
dangus 7y ago
This sort of thing happened long before technology provided mapping programs. I wonder if anyone is familiar with how these things played out in the days of published maps? I’m no historian myself. But I’m sure some map publisher had to begrudgingly admit that “their side lost” at some point. Here’s the thing, once enough time passes, you have to start to consider that Crimea may never return to Ukrainian control. Just because Russia’s actions have been condemned by the international community doesn’t mean those actions weren’t taken and weren’t successful. We have to admit at some point that Russia controls this territory now because, sadly, nobody did anything significant to stop it. Russia essentially fought a brief war and won, and took territory as a result. It’s getting to the point where a map saying that this land is inside the Ukraine is an inaccurate statement.
- pjc50 7y ago
  Maps used to be, like telegraph systems, under far more aggressive state control in various places. I seem to remember that Turkey had a law against possessing maps at greater than specified resolution without a license. Even in present-day India I believe maps are required to show Kashmir with the Indian view, and customs may theoretically confiscate differing printed maps.
- reaperducer 7y ago
  I wonder if anyone is familiar with how these things played out in the days of published maps? Pretty much the same. Map is tailored to its audience. Visit a mid-tier antiques shop in a large global city (New York, London, Vienna) and you may see some old maps with some interesting borders. One of the walls in my home office has one of those big pull-down school maps of the Middle East. There isn't a date on it, but based on the borders it's probably about 80 years old. A number of... unconventional... names and borders on it.
- varjag 7y ago
  The USA used to depict Baltic states as Soviet-occupied independent states on the maps, and didn't budge until USSR fell apart and the countries regained independence. Growing a spine to stand up for what is right helps. Appeasing a bully is certainly going to cement status quo.
xxpor 7y ago
Russia only has 144 million people. Phones haven't been commoditized like they have in China with WeChat. They only have 15% market share. Why doesn't Apple tell Russia to shove it where the sun doesn't shine?
- TurkishPoptart 7y ago
  Because Tim Cook is worthless and spineless.
  - dang 7y ago
    Please don't post personal attacks or call names in HN comments. Perhaps you don't owe billionaire CEOs better, but you owe this community better if you're participating here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- cpursley 7y ago
  Have you ever been to Russia? Every Russian under age 35 is on their smart phone looking at Instagram 24-7. The older generation is on vkontakte via their smart phones sharing cat videos (Russians love cats). I'd go as far as saying that it's getting out of hand...
- lolc 7y ago
  For the people that use it to navigate their lives, a map is most useful when it shows realities on the ground and calls places by the names most useful for the people going there. If you're talking about legitimacy, of course you could be interested in different maps. But why should Apple care much about that? Why not tell those users to "shove it"? Why should these users get to foist their impractical map on everybody else? The wall between Israel and Palestinian territories is disputed and internationally condemned. Still the most useful map is the one showing who controls what parts. The demands of restoration use very different maps that would be impractical to navigate day-to-day. Imagine going to the West Bank with a map showing the never-implemented borders of 1947.
- vbezhenar 7y ago
Doctor_Fegg 7y ago
This happens pretty much everywhere with every online map. Kashmir, Taiwan, Western Sahara, etc. etc. Apple doing it for one country is not particularly news. The only major-league mapping site I know that doesn't do local alterations is OpenStreetMap, and that's because OSM's attitude is "you want the map to show something else? sure, download the raw data and host your own instance".
- kinkrtyavimoodh 7y ago
  I think the real reason is that OSM is, practically speaking, not important enough for countries to bother with censoring it.
  - EGreg 7y ago
    Public Data should be open and anyone can run their own policies on integrating crowdsourced changes. One company hosting the data centrally is responsible for dealing with multiple parties and figuring out a resolution. Often the parties have little recourse but to fine it or block it. We see similar issues when Facebook is blasted by Germany for not censoring a post and by the Trump administration for censoring a similar post. The guys in their boiler room use Google Translate to see if a post in another language is offensive, which is ironic since Facebook is using a Google tool internally. A more pointed example is when the SESTA / FOSTA bill was passed last year to require platforms to police child pornography being posted and the EFF and other free speech advocates were actually up in arms about it, saying that puts undue burdens on facebook and other platforms which are far too big. The problem is why are they too big? Because they run all the software and don’t give it to us. And open source software isn’t good enough to compete with what they have. Look at HN, it is able to add whatever rules it needs to police stuff, and runs on Arc. That’s why Wordpress, Magento, OSM are so important. Eventually they will copy everything the centralized players have and you can CUSTOMIZE them with a marketplace of plugins. Like how the Web replaced AOL. We need REAL open source alternatives to facebook. What are they today?
    - redwall_hp 7y ago
      >We need REAL open source alternatives to facebook. What are they today? GNU Social/Mastodon is by far the most widespread today. It's more like Twitter. (Mastodon is a more modern implementation of the GNU Social protocol, which in turn is the descendent of the Identica mess.) There was also Diaspora, but that never really caught on.
LeoPanthera 7y ago
The headline is somewhat misleading. The map has only been changed when viewed from inside Russia. It is unchanged, everywhere else.
anotheryou 7y ago
The sentence about google maps is wrong. Google shows whatever you want to see. https://i.imgur.com/2HaIhPh.jpg https://i.imgur.com/2HaIhPh.jpg Google.com.ua users see a state/province border (top image) Google.de users a disputed international boundary (middle image) Google.ru users see an undisputed international boundary and Russian spellings of city names (bottom image). (and I think there are generally no borders shown in the oceans) I made the screenshots using proxies or maybe just changing the domains about a year ago (don't remember what exactly I did).
- treden 7y ago
  This really seems like the Right Way(tm) to approach this because it acknowledges that the google isn't attempting to be an authoritative source for what's really a subjective truth, and it presents the "most true" version of reality based on where you're coming from. And has the added benefit, one imagines, of being even more infuriating to those trying to push their One True Truth down everyone else's throats.
  - naz 7y ago
    It's also exactly what Apple is doing in this situation > The region is now displayed as Russian territory on Apple Maps and Weather, when viewed from inside Russia.
    - mzs 7y ago
      No it adds ", Crimea, Russia" to the end of "Simferopol" in Weather.app but does not on the iPhone in US I just tried here.
      - anotheryou 7y ago
        for me in germany it just shows no country at all
      - keymone 7y ago
        Yes, I also noted this. The question is what does it show for people in Ukraine?
pjc50 7y ago
See also Kashmir, Microsoft 1995: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20030822-00/?p=42823 https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20030822-00/?p=42... More accidentally, https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20061027-00/?p=29213 https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20061027-00/?p=29... : Microsoft accidentally flood Poland.
mzs 7y ago
Minister for Foreign Affairs of Ukraine: https://twitter.com/VPrystaiko/status/1199725757762850819 https://twitter.com/VPrystaiko/status/1199725757762850819 >IPhones are great products. Seriously, though, @Apple, please, please, stick to high-tech and entertainment. Global politics is not your strong side. #CrimeaIsUkraine
- nickpeterson 7y ago
  Russia has the power to take a portion of territory and they did. The means through which they did it is considered wrong, but it doesn't change the reality of who controls the area. Maps of political borders are maps of influence, not maps of ideals. I'll also note that thoughts and prayers are not terribly useful in these situations. Force responds to force, nothing else. I expect Russia to continue doing these sorts of things while the world frets.
  - jevgeni 7y ago
    That is legally not true.
    - nickpeterson 7y ago
      I didn't say anything about legality.
    - lawnchair_larry 7y ago
      Legally not true in which jurisdiction?
    - mensetmanusman 7y ago
      Law is a subset of violent power.
  - FpUser 7y ago
    I expect Russia to continue doing these sorts of things while the world frets. I think the situation with Crimea is unique as there is a set of multiple historical, racial, political etc. etc. factors not present anywhere else. What else could Russia possibly annex without triggering major war and world mayhem?
salimmadjd 7y ago
Interesting historical background (not taking sides here). Russia sold Alaska to America to pay for the debt accrued from the Crimean War.[0] It was Nikita Khrushchev who decided to hand over Crimea as territory of Ukraine.[1] [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Purchase https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Purchase [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_transfer_of_Crimea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_transfer_of_Crimea
- brutt 7y ago
  Ukraine was much larger before Soviet invasion. Crimea and Kuban were removed first, then Crimea granted back in exchange of other territories of same size at North and East of Ukraine, then Crimean is captured again. Never trust Russians.
  - vogre 7y ago
    Kuban and Crimea was conquered by Russian Empress Catherine the Great from Ottomans and local Golden Horde debrises. Ukraine was never considered non-Russian state until the fall of Soviets in 199x. Even when it gained short independency in 1917 by the rulings of the Brest Peace, it proclaimed itself as part of some new Russian Federation(that idea was not really liked by bolsheviks and they eliminated that state). Even then Crimea wasn't the part of the Ukraine. It was added to Ukraine only in 1954, when Ukrainian-born Khruschev gave it to Ukraine without some plebiscite or other voting. There were some lands that were really given to Ukraine for exchange for Kuban - the West Ukraine, which belonged to Poland before WWII.
    - brutt 7y ago
      Ukraine IS Russia. When Peter I conquered Russia, it appended "Emperor of Russia" (Царь всея Русси) to his title. Ukraine IS the Russian state. Russians call themselves "Russish" (русские), and their country Rossiia (Россия), to distinguish themselves from Russians (русичи, русины) and Russia (Русся, Русь) Crimea and Cuban were part of Ukraine prior to soviet invasion. Look at maps of Ukraine in 1919-1920: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_People%27s_Republic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_People%27s_Republic .
wnevets 7y ago
I'm sure apple will try to spin this as having courage
Gaelan 7y ago
@mods would it be possible to add "when viewed in Russia" to the title? Seems like an important caveat.
jmull 7y ago
I would think maps published in a given region pretty much have to follow the political norms of that region -- unless they are specifically meant as a political statement. Now, if Apple showed Crimea as part of Russia in other parts of the world in response to Russian pressure, then that's a story.
Nasrudith 7y ago
A more honest way of doing these maps would be to assign universal and transparent territory codes for claimed divergent maps. Of course honesty would defeat the point of the legitimacy propaganda aspect as it would make the politics of it abundantly clear.
mensetmanusman 7y ago
They should shadow ban the Russian politicians and show them the entire world belongs to Russia. Would that get the point across to them?
1023bytes 7y ago
Well, there is no denying that the region is in fact currently governed by Russia. Whether that is right is another question.
- MrZongle2 7y ago
  And unfortunately it seems like the question that many people are willing to give Apple a pass for.
  - lawnchair_larry 7y ago
    Nobody is giving Apple a pass. The map is factual. Like it or not, Crimea is now part of Russia (again). I’m not sure why the change is only visible to Russia.
  - macinjosh 7y ago
    Do you really think somewhere in Apple HQ Tim Cook gathered everyone around and said Apple is going to make a big political statement, about something they have no part in, but instead of putting out a press release let's just change one part of the map for one country. Puhlease. This is a reflection of current reality.
bitwize 7y ago
No shit. It is literally a crime in some countries to suggest that some piece of land which they consider part of their territory, is not part of their territory. Microsoft ran into this with Kashmir in Windows 95.
dmix 7y ago
I learned early in my web dev career that the India northern map one is a very touchy subject if you intend to target Indians with your web service. You have to be careful not to take some random map off the internet when using them in the design.
- colechristensen 7y ago
  What are the issues at play in northern India?
  - evgenyp 7y ago
    Kashmir has been disputed between India and Pakistan for several decades now.
    - SubuSS 7y ago
      And China
    - Razengan 7y ago
      Has anybody thought of asking the people of the disputed region which country they’d like to be a part of?
      - suprfsat 7y ago
        Yes, and 97% of Crimea voted to be part of Russia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum
        dmix 7y ago
        It's interesting that all of the prior polling by relatively politically neutral organizations (UNDP, Razumkov Centre), even dating back to 2009-2011 before the civil war, showed widespread support for at a minimum secession from Ukraine, including multiple polls showing a majority supporting joining Russia (consistently 65% to 70% in favour) yet the whole idea of Crimeans having a voice in their own statehood was rejected outright by the UN and others. > Razumkov characterized Crimeans' views as controversial and unsteady, and therefore vulnerable to internal and external influences. It's true the Russian run referendum is probably a very corruptible process and unreliable but there's no clear indication that the majority of Crimeans were actually against the idea. Which IMO should matter more than what the foreign UN diplomats and think-tanks believe is best for them. > Gallup poll found only 1.7% of ethnic Russians and 14.5% of ethnic Ukrainians living in Crimea thought that the referendum results didn't accurately reflect the views of the Crimean people. The other side of it is whether that even matters with in the context of Ukraine's sovereignty and other issues of statehood. Plus referendums should probably not be happening in moments of anarchy. But it's not a good look for the west when trying to win them over by blaming Russian interference while glossing over potentially legitimate local support.
basicplus2 7y ago
I can imagine that it would be much easier to convince a generation of people who believe Crimea is part of Russia to go to war to win back "their" territory. One has to wonder if companies like Apple have considered such consequences.
hyko 7y ago
Apple enjoys all the privileges of being based in a western liberal democracy, but it’s starting to feel like they don’t really believe in those values. All that guff about privacy, the environment, minority rights etc, yet when faced with real tyranny they will do literally anything in return for market access. The lesson is clear: don’t expect soft power alone to topple the autocrats of the 21st Century.
- yogthos 7y ago
  Show me a single corporation that has values beyond making a profit.
  - firethief 7y ago
    Show me a mammal who has values beyond continuing to oxidize food. Survival is an overriding value for everyone, but acting in accordance with other values can be a part of how that's achieved--ideally corporations are rewarded with profitability when they act in accordance with society's values. How best to achieve this, though, is a matter of some disagreement.
  - jmccorm 7y ago
    A nonprofit corporation is one answer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonprofit_corporation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonprofit_corporation But if you’re not being literal when you ask about values beyond profit, then as an easy example: Valve. They believe in promoting PC gaming and moving it forward. I think their service (and products) represents that value fairly well, and sometimes at the expense of profit.
    - renjimen 7y ago
      Tell that to the CSGO community with the new game-breaking changes (you can buy camoflaged player skins) in the name of profit
      - jmccorm 7y ago
        Despite this, I find it quite difficult to say that Valve values profits and nothing else. Why? Values are not binary, and they are not applied equally in all situations. And like any company, they’ve made their share of bad moves. Yet a profit-first Valve would be far different than the company we see today. Still, I’m sorry to hear of that situation.
gfiorav 7y ago
Not really surprised to see this behaviour from Apple. They've also blocked LGBTI watchfaces in Russia. I know all other companies do this too, but I wonder: If Apple can't do it... then who can? We need some bravery.
w0mbat 7y ago
Back in the 90s when I was at a small BBC spin-off writing 3D Atlas (published by EA) we'd periodically get orders from EA to mark Tibet or Taiwan as part of China, or attribute Kashmir to India or Pakistan or something, apparently required for a particular localized version. It was a more innocent time, and we'd always tell them to fuck off.
lawnchair_larry 7y ago
Why are people under the impression that Crimea is not part of Russia?
- macinjosh 7y ago
  Some people like to reject reality and substitute their own. :shrug:
ponsin 7y ago
I don't know the specifics of Crimea that well but there should be some easy heuristics to see who owns what country. - When items are sold, which country collects sales tax? - Who provides the police, driver license, mail? - If there are elections, who to the people vote for? Does Crimea not have simple answers to those questions?
- sukilot 7y ago
  Government is a legal fiction. The answers are never simple.
- vogre 7y ago
  It does. Russia does it all.
  - ponsin 7y ago
    so then it seems stupid to not recognize reality just because we may not agree that it was good that Russia conquered Crimea.
macinjosh 7y ago
Everyone knows electronic maps are for navigating through the world as it is but is not a place people tend to make their political statements, right? Maps have changed in the past. They will change again in the future.
Paianni 7y ago
Why don't we just recognise territories by whomever happens to control them? Insisting on 'legitimate' states imposes politics onto world maps where it shouldn't be needed.
jdkee 7y ago
Alternative facts.
stevespang 7y ago
Apple sells out to the Despots and Crooks . . . .
sidcool 7y ago
Genuine question. How should Apple decide what to show where? We being individuals, can take a stand, but how can a company take non neutral stand where there are grey areas? Because one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Should a business be in the business of Justice?
- est 7y ago
  Maybe the US state department should give a guideline about how countries should draw their maps so American companies can start follow them.
keymone 7y ago
It may be that there was some reorganization at Apple because my friend From Ukraine yesterday told me she was forced to pick a different App Store on her phone and the only option available was Russia.

428 points by mzs 7y ago

First China and now Russia. Come on apple, I don't like seeing placation or appeasement like this.

mzs 7y ago

Anyone know how to check these from different locations? I'm curious about how Transnistria is treated from Moldova, Romania, Ukraine, and Russia. >Google, which also produces a popular Maps app, does not show Crimea as belonging to either Russia or Ukraine on its maps. >However, it uses the Russian spelling of Crimean place names on its maps in Russia, rather than the Ukrainian spelling.

hmage 7y ago
https://i.imgur.com/2HaIhPh.jpg https://i.imgur.com/2HaIhPh.jpg Ukrainian users see a state/province border (top image) German users see a disputed international boundary (middle image) Russian users see an undisputed international boundary and Russian spellings of city names (bottom image). (and I think there are generally no borders shown in the oceans)

ir77 7y ago

i'm a big fan of apple products and definitely bought into apple's stance -- but now i'm starting to think it's nothing more than a convenient branding campaign that only works in the USA. all these aspects that apple markets in the USA seem to be completely negotiable anywhere in the world, and i wonder how long before they can also become negotiable in the USA. in the USA, because of fairly well established democracy and general freedom of speech apple is able to push back on government "requests" blatantly in the open and use this openness to their advantage. everywhere else where no such transparency exists because the government completely controls the communication medium these pushbacks simply don't happen -- apple really has no interest of ever stepping out on a limb if that limb will cost them calculated market share. it's really sad because they as a company are speaking/acting out of both of their ends, depending on the convenience of the local market. it's convenient and possible to push back in the USA, it's convenient and impossible to push back with other totalitarian regimes so they fold.

S_A_P 7y ago
I gotta say this is a pretty weak move on apples part. If apple really wants to be a cultural force, hard decisions must be made. Bowing to any government leader in any country is a slippery slope.
- ir77 7y ago
  the problem is that even if i had a knee jerk reaction (i slightly did ;) ) and said 1)i should take a stance against apple 2) google is not an alternative -- what are my options? i can try to hack together some lineageOS device or something else, which will ruin the camera experience for me -- probably the most important feature of my smartphone for me. on top of that, i'll still have to rely on google for map /traffic data as i'm not aware of any other well established alternatives -- but what's worse is that i'm still in the USA and while google shows me a free and liberated map of a world it obviously can be showing someone in russia/iran/china something completely different and 'local' to them. how does one really fight this?
  - soperj 7y ago
    here maps. It's nokia. They're great. Not quite as good as google's offering, but better than apples.
    - reaperducer 7y ago
      How does it handle the Crimea question?
    - ilkkao 7y ago
      It was Nokia to be precise. Nokia sold it to AUDI, BMW and Daimler in 2015
      - soperj 7y ago
        Missed that some how. Thanks. Looks like other have come on board as well now.

eznoonze 7y ago

What a world we live in! Each country gets its own version of alternative reality.

hollander 7y ago
It should be marked as disputed, from both sides, like "agreed to disagree". Think what would happen if the UK took back Hong Kong, or if Hong Kong declared itself independent. We - westerners - would all love that and accept it immediately. Would we have a problem then with Apple if they showed HK as a separate country?
- pjc50 7y ago
  You might want to have a look at Taiwan.
- nmeofthestate 7y ago
  "It should be marked as disputed" That's not how international law works. By all means maps may be tailored to suit the preferences of markets/countries, but military conquest of a territory doesn't convert it to a "disputed" status. Currently the internationally-recognised borders between Ukraine/Russia are well-defined. > We - westerners - would all love [the UK invading and annexing Hong Kong] and accept it immediately. What rot!
  - gnode 7y ago
    Both Russia and Ukraine claim the territory of Crimea, and it is therefore disputed. > but military conquest of a territory doesn't convert it to a "disputed" status. Many territories are disputed without conflict. If military conquest, occupation and de facto control of a territory doesn't reify a dispute, then nothing does. For examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_territorial_disputes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_territorial_disputes
gmueckl 7y ago
That's not a new thing. Maps have been political for ages. Mandating the shape of border lines on maps has been a part of many border disputes. Also, it's eye opening to read or watch news from other countries. There's a big country-specific bias in the selection of international news stories. This bias is a necessary evil, but it can have a huge political and cultural impact.

yardie 7y ago

This probably happens a lot more than you realize. Border and geographic name disputes can get very political and potentially violent. Off the top of my head: * Persian/Arabian Gulf * Palestine/Israel * Western Sahara/Morocco * Kashmir

pjc50 7y ago
Nagorno-Karabakh. Even Kosovo isn't really settled, and is probably the easiest one for a European to reach.
izacus 7y ago
Kosovo and Macedonia could also be added to that list. Not to mention myriad of minor border disputes pretty much everywhere across the world.
duskwuff 7y ago
Another big one: naming of oceans in southeast Asia. There's the South China Sea / West Philipppine Sea, for example, or the Sea of Japan / Sea of Korea / East Sea.
improbable22 7y ago
* Antarctica! Every map you see in Chile & Argentina includes a large pie-slice of the continent... and pretty close to being the same pie slice as each other's. Not to mention some islands which one of them tried to take over, once upon a time.
Freak_NL 7y ago
* The Netherlands/Germany https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=10/53.4786/6.6982 https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=10/53.4786/6.6982 Note the overlapping borders that makes a bit of sea part of both countries. This is strictly a non-violent matter of differing border interpretations though, with almost no judicial or maritime consequences.

cpursley 7y ago

> However, it uses the Russian spelling of Crimean place names on its maps in Russia, rather than the Ukrainian spelling. The vast majority of people in Crimea are Russian speakers (as well as being ethnically Russian). It's been that way since the Russian Empire conquered the peninsula from the Ottomans in 1783. In fact, there's nearly as many Tartar (descendents of Ottomans) speakers in Crimea than Ukrainian. Last time I was there (early this year), I saw a number of new mosques under construction. I'm not justifying the recent annexation, just noting the linguist realities on the ground. Also, politics aside, if you ever have the chance to visit, do it. The peninsula is very beautiful and there's lots of interesting geographical features and historical sights to see. Also, the infrastructure has improved significantly since the Russian takeover (unfortunately Ukraine being poor, neglected the peninsula after the collapse of the USSR) so getting around is easier now. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#demographics https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#demographics

polski-g 7y ago
The majority of the people in Crimea are and were Russian at the time of vote for annexation. It makes sense that genetic Russians would want to reunite with their people.
- jevgeni 7y ago
  Oh wow... "Jedem das Seine", right? /s
- keymone 7y ago
  First, you’re conflating language with national identity here, second you’re completely ignoring Crimean tatars that we’re repressed and mass deported from Crimea by Stalin, third you’re not making any sense anyway, because just because major chunk of local population wants to secede - can’t be ground for annexation and starting war, that’s just idiotic.
  - polski-g 7y ago
    The Ukrainian/Russian mainland war is a separate issue from Russians living in Crimea wanting to be reunited with their countrymen.

dangus 7y ago

This sort of thing happened long before technology provided mapping programs. I wonder if anyone is familiar with how these things played out in the days of published maps? I’m no historian myself. But I’m sure some map publisher had to begrudgingly admit that “their side lost” at some point. Here’s the thing, once enough time passes, you have to start to consider that Crimea may never return to Ukrainian control. Just because Russia’s actions have been condemned by the international community doesn’t mean those actions weren’t taken and weren’t successful. We have to admit at some point that Russia controls this territory now because, sadly, nobody did anything significant to stop it. Russia essentially fought a brief war and won, and took territory as a result. It’s getting to the point where a map saying that this land is inside the Ukraine is an inaccurate statement.

pjc50 7y ago
Maps used to be, like telegraph systems, under far more aggressive state control in various places. I seem to remember that Turkey had a law against possessing maps at greater than specified resolution without a license. Even in present-day India I believe maps are required to show Kashmir with the Indian view, and customs may theoretically confiscate differing printed maps.
reaperducer 7y ago
I wonder if anyone is familiar with how these things played out in the days of published maps? Pretty much the same. Map is tailored to its audience. Visit a mid-tier antiques shop in a large global city (New York, London, Vienna) and you may see some old maps with some interesting borders. One of the walls in my home office has one of those big pull-down school maps of the Middle East. There isn't a date on it, but based on the borders it's probably about 80 years old. A number of... unconventional... names and borders on it.
varjag 7y ago
The USA used to depict Baltic states as Soviet-occupied independent states on the maps, and didn't budge until USSR fell apart and the countries regained independence. Growing a spine to stand up for what is right helps. Appeasing a bully is certainly going to cement status quo.

xxpor 7y ago

Russia only has 144 million people. Phones haven't been commoditized like they have in China with WeChat. They only have 15% market share. Why doesn't Apple tell Russia to shove it where the sun doesn't shine?

TurkishPoptart 7y ago
Because Tim Cook is worthless and spineless.
- dang 7y ago
  Please don't post personal attacks or call names in HN comments. Perhaps you don't owe billionaire CEOs better, but you owe this community better if you're participating here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
cpursley 7y ago
Have you ever been to Russia? Every Russian under age 35 is on their smart phone looking at Instagram 24-7. The older generation is on vkontakte via their smart phones sharing cat videos (Russians love cats). I'd go as far as saying that it's getting out of hand...
lolc 7y ago
For the people that use it to navigate their lives, a map is most useful when it shows realities on the ground and calls places by the names most useful for the people going there. If you're talking about legitimacy, of course you could be interested in different maps. But why should Apple care much about that? Why not tell those users to "shove it"? Why should these users get to foist their impractical map on everybody else? The wall between Israel and Palestinian territories is disputed and internationally condemned. Still the most useful map is the one showing who controls what parts. The demands of restoration use very different maps that would be impractical to navigate day-to-day. Imagine going to the West Bank with a map showing the never-implemented borders of 1947.
vbezhenar 7y ago

Doctor_Fegg 7y ago

This happens pretty much everywhere with every online map. Kashmir, Taiwan, Western Sahara, etc. etc. Apple doing it for one country is not particularly news. The only major-league mapping site I know that doesn't do local alterations is OpenStreetMap, and that's because OSM's attitude is "you want the map to show something else? sure, download the raw data and host your own instance".

kinkrtyavimoodh 7y ago
I think the real reason is that OSM is, practically speaking, not important enough for countries to bother with censoring it.
- EGreg 7y ago
  Public Data should be open and anyone can run their own policies on integrating crowdsourced changes. One company hosting the data centrally is responsible for dealing with multiple parties and figuring out a resolution. Often the parties have little recourse but to fine it or block it. We see similar issues when Facebook is blasted by Germany for not censoring a post and by the Trump administration for censoring a similar post. The guys in their boiler room use Google Translate to see if a post in another language is offensive, which is ironic since Facebook is using a Google tool internally. A more pointed example is when the SESTA / FOSTA bill was passed last year to require platforms to police child pornography being posted and the EFF and other free speech advocates were actually up in arms about it, saying that puts undue burdens on facebook and other platforms which are far too big. The problem is why are they too big? Because they run all the software and don’t give it to us. And open source software isn’t good enough to compete with what they have. Look at HN, it is able to add whatever rules it needs to police stuff, and runs on Arc. That’s why Wordpress, Magento, OSM are so important. Eventually they will copy everything the centralized players have and you can CUSTOMIZE them with a marketplace of plugins. Like how the Web replaced AOL. We need REAL open source alternatives to facebook. What are they today?
  - redwall_hp 7y ago
    >We need REAL open source alternatives to facebook. What are they today? GNU Social/Mastodon is by far the most widespread today. It's more like Twitter. (Mastodon is a more modern implementation of the GNU Social protocol, which in turn is the descendent of the Identica mess.) There was also Diaspora, but that never really caught on.

LeoPanthera 7y ago

The headline is somewhat misleading. The map has only been changed when viewed from inside Russia. It is unchanged, everywhere else.

anotheryou 7y ago

The sentence about google maps is wrong. Google shows whatever you want to see. https://i.imgur.com/2HaIhPh.jpg https://i.imgur.com/2HaIhPh.jpg Google.com.ua users see a state/province border (top image) Google.de users a disputed international boundary (middle image) Google.ru users see an undisputed international boundary and Russian spellings of city names (bottom image). (and I think there are generally no borders shown in the oceans) I made the screenshots using proxies or maybe just changing the domains about a year ago (don't remember what exactly I did).

treden 7y ago
This really seems like the Right Way(tm) to approach this because it acknowledges that the google isn't attempting to be an authoritative source for what's really a subjective truth, and it presents the "most true" version of reality based on where you're coming from. And has the added benefit, one imagines, of being even more infuriating to those trying to push their One True Truth down everyone else's throats.
- naz 7y ago
  It's also exactly what Apple is doing in this situation > The region is now displayed as Russian territory on Apple Maps and Weather, when viewed from inside Russia.
  - mzs 7y ago
    No it adds ", Crimea, Russia" to the end of "Simferopol" in Weather.app but does not on the iPhone in US I just tried here.
    - anotheryou 7y ago
      for me in germany it just shows no country at all
    - keymone 7y ago
      Yes, I also noted this. The question is what does it show for people in Ukraine?

pjc50 7y ago

See also Kashmir, Microsoft 1995: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20030822-00/?p=42823 https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20030822-00/?p=42... More accidentally, https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20061027-00/?p=29213 https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20061027-00/?p=29... : Microsoft accidentally flood Poland.

mzs 7y ago

Minister for Foreign Affairs of Ukraine: https://twitter.com/VPrystaiko/status/1199725757762850819 https://twitter.com/VPrystaiko/status/1199725757762850819 >IPhones are great products. Seriously, though, @Apple, please, please, stick to high-tech and entertainment. Global politics is not your strong side. #CrimeaIsUkraine

nickpeterson 7y ago
Russia has the power to take a portion of territory and they did. The means through which they did it is considered wrong, but it doesn't change the reality of who controls the area. Maps of political borders are maps of influence, not maps of ideals. I'll also note that thoughts and prayers are not terribly useful in these situations. Force responds to force, nothing else. I expect Russia to continue doing these sorts of things while the world frets.
- jevgeni 7y ago
  That is legally not true.
  - nickpeterson 7y ago
    I didn't say anything about legality.
  - lawnchair_larry 7y ago
    Legally not true in which jurisdiction?
  - mensetmanusman 7y ago
    Law is a subset of violent power.
- FpUser 7y ago
  I expect Russia to continue doing these sorts of things while the world frets. I think the situation with Crimea is unique as there is a set of multiple historical, racial, political etc. etc. factors not present anywhere else. What else could Russia possibly annex without triggering major war and world mayhem?

salimmadjd 7y ago

Interesting historical background (not taking sides here). Russia sold Alaska to America to pay for the debt accrued from the Crimean War.[0] It was Nikita Khrushchev who decided to hand over Crimea as territory of Ukraine.[1] [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Purchase https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Purchase [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_transfer_of_Crimea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_transfer_of_Crimea

brutt 7y ago
Ukraine was much larger before Soviet invasion. Crimea and Kuban were removed first, then Crimea granted back in exchange of other territories of same size at North and East of Ukraine, then Crimean is captured again. Never trust Russians.
- vogre 7y ago
  Kuban and Crimea was conquered by Russian Empress Catherine the Great from Ottomans and local Golden Horde debrises. Ukraine was never considered non-Russian state until the fall of Soviets in 199x. Even when it gained short independency in 1917 by the rulings of the Brest Peace, it proclaimed itself as part of some new Russian Federation(that idea was not really liked by bolsheviks and they eliminated that state). Even then Crimea wasn't the part of the Ukraine. It was added to Ukraine only in 1954, when Ukrainian-born Khruschev gave it to Ukraine without some plebiscite or other voting. There were some lands that were really given to Ukraine for exchange for Kuban - the West Ukraine, which belonged to Poland before WWII.
  - brutt 7y ago
    Ukraine IS Russia. When Peter I conquered Russia, it appended "Emperor of Russia" (Царь всея Русси) to his title. Ukraine IS the Russian state. Russians call themselves "Russish" (русские), and their country Rossiia (Россия), to distinguish themselves from Russians (русичи, русины) and Russia (Русся, Русь) Crimea and Cuban were part of Ukraine prior to soviet invasion. Look at maps of Ukraine in 1919-1920: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_People%27s_Republic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_People%27s_Republic .

wnevets 7y ago

I'm sure apple will try to spin this as having courage

Gaelan 7y ago

@mods would it be possible to add "when viewed in Russia" to the title? Seems like an important caveat.

jmull 7y ago

I would think maps published in a given region pretty much have to follow the political norms of that region -- unless they are specifically meant as a political statement. Now, if Apple showed Crimea as part of Russia in other parts of the world in response to Russian pressure, then that's a story.

Nasrudith 7y ago

A more honest way of doing these maps would be to assign universal and transparent territory codes for claimed divergent maps. Of course honesty would defeat the point of the legitimacy propaganda aspect as it would make the politics of it abundantly clear.

mensetmanusman 7y ago

They should shadow ban the Russian politicians and show them the entire world belongs to Russia. Would that get the point across to them?

1023bytes 7y ago

Well, there is no denying that the region is in fact currently governed by Russia. Whether that is right is another question.

MrZongle2 7y ago
And unfortunately it seems like the question that many people are willing to give Apple a pass for.
- lawnchair_larry 7y ago
  Nobody is giving Apple a pass. The map is factual. Like it or not, Crimea is now part of Russia (again). I’m not sure why the change is only visible to Russia.
- macinjosh 7y ago
  Do you really think somewhere in Apple HQ Tim Cook gathered everyone around and said Apple is going to make a big political statement, about something they have no part in, but instead of putting out a press release let's just change one part of the map for one country. Puhlease. This is a reflection of current reality.

bitwize 7y ago

No shit. It is literally a crime in some countries to suggest that some piece of land which they consider part of their territory, is not part of their territory. Microsoft ran into this with Kashmir in Windows 95.

dmix 7y ago

I learned early in my web dev career that the India northern map one is a very touchy subject if you intend to target Indians with your web service. You have to be careful not to take some random map off the internet when using them in the design.

colechristensen 7y ago
What are the issues at play in northern India?
- evgenyp 7y ago
  Kashmir has been disputed between India and Pakistan for several decades now.
  - SubuSS 7y ago
    And China
  - Razengan 7y ago
    Has anybody thought of asking the people of the disputed region which country they’d like to be a part of?
    - suprfsat 7y ago
      Yes, and 97% of Crimea voted to be part of Russia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum
      - dmix 7y ago
        It's interesting that all of the prior polling by relatively politically neutral organizations (UNDP, Razumkov Centre), even dating back to 2009-2011 before the civil war, showed widespread support for at a minimum secession from Ukraine, including multiple polls showing a majority supporting joining Russia (consistently 65% to 70% in favour) yet the whole idea of Crimeans having a voice in their own statehood was rejected outright by the UN and others. > Razumkov characterized Crimeans' views as controversial and unsteady, and therefore vulnerable to internal and external influences. It's true the Russian run referendum is probably a very corruptible process and unreliable but there's no clear indication that the majority of Crimeans were actually against the idea. Which IMO should matter more than what the foreign UN diplomats and think-tanks believe is best for them. > Gallup poll found only 1.7% of ethnic Russians and 14.5% of ethnic Ukrainians living in Crimea thought that the referendum results didn't accurately reflect the views of the Crimean people. The other side of it is whether that even matters with in the context of Ukraine's sovereignty and other issues of statehood. Plus referendums should probably not be happening in moments of anarchy. But it's not a good look for the west when trying to win them over by blaming Russian interference while glossing over potentially legitimate local support.

basicplus2 7y ago

I can imagine that it would be much easier to convince a generation of people who believe Crimea is part of Russia to go to war to win back "their" territory. One has to wonder if companies like Apple have considered such consequences.

hyko 7y ago

Apple enjoys all the privileges of being based in a western liberal democracy, but it’s starting to feel like they don’t really believe in those values. All that guff about privacy, the environment, minority rights etc, yet when faced with real tyranny they will do literally anything in return for market access. The lesson is clear: don’t expect soft power alone to topple the autocrats of the 21st Century.

yogthos 7y ago
Show me a single corporation that has values beyond making a profit.
- firethief 7y ago
  Show me a mammal who has values beyond continuing to oxidize food. Survival is an overriding value for everyone, but acting in accordance with other values can be a part of how that's achieved--ideally corporations are rewarded with profitability when they act in accordance with society's values. How best to achieve this, though, is a matter of some disagreement.
- jmccorm 7y ago
  A nonprofit corporation is one answer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonprofit_corporation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonprofit_corporation But if you’re not being literal when you ask about values beyond profit, then as an easy example: Valve. They believe in promoting PC gaming and moving it forward. I think their service (and products) represents that value fairly well, and sometimes at the expense of profit.
  - renjimen 7y ago
    Tell that to the CSGO community with the new game-breaking changes (you can buy camoflaged player skins) in the name of profit
    - jmccorm 7y ago
      Despite this, I find it quite difficult to say that Valve values profits and nothing else. Why? Values are not binary, and they are not applied equally in all situations. And like any company, they’ve made their share of bad moves. Yet a profit-first Valve would be far different than the company we see today. Still, I’m sorry to hear of that situation.

gfiorav 7y ago

Not really surprised to see this behaviour from Apple. They've also blocked LGBTI watchfaces in Russia. I know all other companies do this too, but I wonder: If Apple can't do it... then who can? We need some bravery.

w0mbat 7y ago

Back in the 90s when I was at a small BBC spin-off writing 3D Atlas (published by EA) we'd periodically get orders from EA to mark Tibet or Taiwan as part of China, or attribute Kashmir to India or Pakistan or something, apparently required for a particular localized version. It was a more innocent time, and we'd always tell them to fuck off.

lawnchair_larry 7y ago

Why are people under the impression that Crimea is not part of Russia?

macinjosh 7y ago
Some people like to reject reality and substitute their own. :shrug:

ponsin 7y ago

I don't know the specifics of Crimea that well but there should be some easy heuristics to see who owns what country. - When items are sold, which country collects sales tax? - Who provides the police, driver license, mail? - If there are elections, who to the people vote for? Does Crimea not have simple answers to those questions?

sukilot 7y ago
Government is a legal fiction. The answers are never simple.
vogre 7y ago
It does. Russia does it all.
- ponsin 7y ago
  so then it seems stupid to not recognize reality just because we may not agree that it was good that Russia conquered Crimea.

macinjosh 7y ago

Everyone knows electronic maps are for navigating through the world as it is but is not a place people tend to make their political statements, right? Maps have changed in the past. They will change again in the future.

Paianni 7y ago

Why don't we just recognise territories by whomever happens to control them? Insisting on 'legitimate' states imposes politics onto world maps where it shouldn't be needed.

jdkee 7y ago

Alternative facts.

stevespang 7y ago

Apple sells out to the Despots and Crooks . . . .

sidcool 7y ago

Genuine question. How should Apple decide what to show where? We being individuals, can take a stand, but how can a company take non neutral stand where there are grey areas? Because one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Should a business be in the business of Justice?

est 7y ago
Maybe the US state department should give a guideline about how countries should draw their maps so American companies can start follow them.

keymone 7y ago

It may be that there was some reorganization at Apple because my friend From Ukraine yesterday told me she was forced to pick a different App Store on her phone and the only option available was Russia.