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This is a great step forward, but it seems like a great deal of overhead and complexity to have a cross-platform GUI. If I were creating a new cross-platform d

This is a great step forward, but it seems like a great deal of overhead and complexity to have a cross-platform GUI. If I were creating a new cross-platform desktop application I would probably reach for Java instead. I know that's not the popular answer, but if a .NET Core cross-platform GUI requires either using Electron or simulating a client-server setup with Node then it's not there yet. To illustrate, here is the "Hello World" cross-platform GUI application in Java: https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/uiswing/examples/start/HelloWorldSwingProject/src/start/HelloWorldSwing.java https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/uiswing/examples/sta... Setting up a connection between two processes and building async handlers is way too much if the application is running on one machine.

bluejekyll 7y ago
Would that Java application be capable of running in the browser? JavaFX, maybe?
- thesuperbigfrog 7y ago
  That "Hello World" example uses Java's Swing GUI framework which is older and does not port to the web as easily as JavaFX. Here is the JavaFX-based "Hello World": https://docs.oracle.com/javafx/2/get_started/hello_world.htm#CHDIFJHE https://docs.oracle.com/javafx/2/get_started/hello_world.htm... There are also numerous Java to Web frameworks and solutions like TeaVM (https://blogs.oracle.com/javamagazine/java-in-the-browser-with-teavm https://blogs.oracle.com/javamagazine/java-in-the-browser-wi...), JSF (https://javaee.github.io/javaserverfaces-spec/ https://javaee.github.io/javaserverfaces-spec/), and many others, but at that point you are no longer talking about just a cross-platform GUI--you are talking about a web application.
  - bluejekyll 7y ago
    Isn’t that generally the main benefit of using electron based apps? The ability to target both desktop and web? We can bemoan the inefficiency of this, and how wasteful it is, but at the end of the day, it’s a very portable way of delivering applications. I think VSCode is a huge success because of this model.
    - thesuperbigfrog 7y ago
      >> Isn’t that generally the main benefit of using electron based apps? The ability to target both desktop and web? Yes, but then what would be the point of ElectronCGI? If the goal is to target desktop and web then Electron is a great choice. There are many popular Electron-based applications that show this, e.g. Slack, VSCode, etc. ElectronCGI is supposed to provide a cross-platform GUI for use cases where the full Electron stack is not wanted or perhaps not available. I applaud the effort, but it strikes me as a strange choice since it brings the client-server and async complexities from web programming into a desktop environment. It seems like a very niche use case. Perhaps if you have a large .NET codebase that needs to be available as a cross-platform desktop application, but for some reason you can't use Electron / Blazor ?
efdee 7y ago
Good luck getting that Swing app to look nice, though. Which is a breeze with HTML/CSS.
- thesuperbigfrog 7y ago
  Customizing the appearance is one place where Swing's age shows. It is possible to create a custom "Look and Feel", but it is not as easy as HTML / CSS: https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/uiswing/lookandfeel/ https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/uiswing/lookandfeel/ JavaFX does allow CSS to be used to style it: https://docs.oracle.com/javase/8/javafx/user-interface-tutorial/css_tutorial.htm https://docs.oracle.com/javase/8/javafx/user-interface-tutor...
  - Crinus 7y ago
    I remember >10 years ago there used to be some "plaf" libraries that provided very easy themeing abilities for Swing that even came with a WYSIWYG tool to create themes. It is a shame something like that never became part of Swing itself and instead you have to create tons of classes just for a theme.
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      Or actually buy them. http://www.jgoodies.com/ http://www.jgoodies.com/ is still in business, to give a possible example.
      - Crinus 7y ago
        This doesn't fix the issue of Swing theming being hard. The fix would be to make it much easier, preferably with a visual editor.
        pjmlp 7y ago
        You mean like Netbeans Matisse, or more like actually having a designer on the team?
vips7L 7y ago
Swing is probably the wrong choice if youre going java. I do electron everyday for work and we use stdin/stdout to farm json to a Java process as well. Given the chance I would probably use JavaFX over Electron or Swing. The FX app will be easier to style than swing and Gluon just announced native compilation support via Graal for new FX apps [0]. [0] https://gluonhq.com/gluon-substrate-and-graalvm-native-image-with-javafx-support/ https://gluonhq.com/gluon-substrate-and-graalvm-native-image...
- tannhaeuser 7y ago
  Last I checked (late last year) JavaFX hadn't HiDPI support.
  - vips7L 7y ago
    According to the release notes for version 8 HiDPI is supported.
    - tannhaeuser 7y ago
      Is that for Gluon? Sorry for not looking it up myself, but it's probably worth pointing out that at least Swing has (kindof) Oracle and a major Java desktop app behind, whereas JFX hasn't seen any love at all. I played around with JFX a couple years ago but there were serious problems with its WebKit integration. Coming to think about it, I'm wondering if there are any plans to integrate JFX and WebKit on GraalVM as a serious Electron contender.
- thesuperbigfrog 7y ago
  I agree with you. JavaFX is better than Swing for most use cases. I gave the Swing "Hello World" example because it shows a minimal, simple example of how little code is needed to create cross-platform GUI in Java. JavaFX is also technically an external library now since Oracle spun out JavaFX to OpenJFX and Gluon has taken over development and maintenance, although many but not all OpenJDK distributions include it.
  - 7y ago

bluejekyll 7y ago

Would that Java application be capable of running in the browser? JavaFX, maybe?

thesuperbigfrog 7y ago
That "Hello World" example uses Java's Swing GUI framework which is older and does not port to the web as easily as JavaFX. Here is the JavaFX-based "Hello World": https://docs.oracle.com/javafx/2/get_started/hello_world.htm#CHDIFJHE https://docs.oracle.com/javafx/2/get_started/hello_world.htm... There are also numerous Java to Web frameworks and solutions like TeaVM (https://blogs.oracle.com/javamagazine/java-in-the-browser-with-teavm https://blogs.oracle.com/javamagazine/java-in-the-browser-wi...), JSF (https://javaee.github.io/javaserverfaces-spec/ https://javaee.github.io/javaserverfaces-spec/), and many others, but at that point you are no longer talking about just a cross-platform GUI--you are talking about a web application.
- bluejekyll 7y ago
  Isn’t that generally the main benefit of using electron based apps? The ability to target both desktop and web? We can bemoan the inefficiency of this, and how wasteful it is, but at the end of the day, it’s a very portable way of delivering applications. I think VSCode is a huge success because of this model.
  - thesuperbigfrog 7y ago
    >> Isn’t that generally the main benefit of using electron based apps? The ability to target both desktop and web? Yes, but then what would be the point of ElectronCGI? If the goal is to target desktop and web then Electron is a great choice. There are many popular Electron-based applications that show this, e.g. Slack, VSCode, etc. ElectronCGI is supposed to provide a cross-platform GUI for use cases where the full Electron stack is not wanted or perhaps not available. I applaud the effort, but it strikes me as a strange choice since it brings the client-server and async complexities from web programming into a desktop environment. It seems like a very niche use case. Perhaps if you have a large .NET codebase that needs to be available as a cross-platform desktop application, but for some reason you can't use Electron / Blazor ?

efdee 7y ago

Good luck getting that Swing app to look nice, though. Which is a breeze with HTML/CSS.

thesuperbigfrog 7y ago
Customizing the appearance is one place where Swing's age shows. It is possible to create a custom "Look and Feel", but it is not as easy as HTML / CSS: https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/uiswing/lookandfeel/ https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/uiswing/lookandfeel/ JavaFX does allow CSS to be used to style it: https://docs.oracle.com/javase/8/javafx/user-interface-tutorial/css_tutorial.htm https://docs.oracle.com/javase/8/javafx/user-interface-tutor...
- Crinus 7y ago
  I remember >10 years ago there used to be some "plaf" libraries that provided very easy themeing abilities for Swing that even came with a WYSIWYG tool to create themes. It is a shame something like that never became part of Swing itself and instead you have to create tons of classes just for a theme.
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    Or actually buy them. http://www.jgoodies.com/ http://www.jgoodies.com/ is still in business, to give a possible example.
    - Crinus 7y ago
      This doesn't fix the issue of Swing theming being hard. The fix would be to make it much easier, preferably with a visual editor.
      - pjmlp 7y ago
        You mean like Netbeans Matisse, or more like actually having a designer on the team?

vips7L 7y ago

Swing is probably the wrong choice if youre going java. I do electron everyday for work and we use stdin/stdout to farm json to a Java process as well. Given the chance I would probably use JavaFX over Electron or Swing. The FX app will be easier to style than swing and Gluon just announced native compilation support via Graal for new FX apps [0]. [0] https://gluonhq.com/gluon-substrate-and-graalvm-native-image-with-javafx-support/ https://gluonhq.com/gluon-substrate-and-graalvm-native-image...

tannhaeuser 7y ago
Last I checked (late last year) JavaFX hadn't HiDPI support.
- vips7L 7y ago
  According to the release notes for version 8 HiDPI is supported.
  - tannhaeuser 7y ago
    Is that for Gluon? Sorry for not looking it up myself, but it's probably worth pointing out that at least Swing has (kindof) Oracle and a major Java desktop app behind, whereas JFX hasn't seen any love at all. I played around with JFX a couple years ago but there were serious problems with its WebKit integration. Coming to think about it, I'm wondering if there are any plans to integrate JFX and WebKit on GraalVM as a serious Electron contender.
thesuperbigfrog 7y ago
I agree with you. JavaFX is better than Swing for most use cases. I gave the Swing "Hello World" example because it shows a minimal, simple example of how little code is needed to create cross-platform GUI in Java. JavaFX is also technically an external library now since Oracle spun out JavaFX to OpenJFX and Gluon has taken over development and maintenance, although many but not all OpenJDK distributions include it.
- 7y ago