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Can autoupdate be considered as telemetry? Secondly. Atom download page (https://atom.io/ https://atom.io/) contains text (well, someone may not even notice it

by jve 7y ago

Can autoupdate be considered as telemetry? Secondly. Atom download page (https://atom.io/ https://atom.io/) contains text (well, someone may not even notice it, that's another issue): > By downloading, you agree to the Terms and Conditions. It says: > Auto-Update Services > The Software may include an auto-update service ("Service"). If you choose to use the Service or you download Software that automatically enables the Service, GitHub will automatically update the Software when a new version is available Moreover: > Privacy > The Software may collect personal information. You may control what information the Software collects in the settings panel. If the Software does collect personal information on GitHub's behalf, GitHub will process that information in accordance with the GitHub Privacy Statement. People don't read the TOS and complain.

chownie 7y ago
I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect users to read the ToS to find out whether their text editor will phone home. This also doesn't excuse the editor sending analytics for users who opt out of analytics.
- jve 7y ago
  This is EXACTLY what I expect to find out in TOS. Along with how they use and with whom they share the data (privacy policy). TOS actually is stronger than preferences. If TOS doesn't state that I can opt out, I don't expect that I'm opted out of everything, even when I set such preferences in software. And that they can introduce some phoning home at will, as long as they comply with their TOS.
  - chownie 7y ago
    That answers a different question, whether you expect that content to be in the ToS or not isn't relevant. I asked whether it's reasonable to expect users to search the ToS to understand the behaviour of their editor. I don't think it is reasonable, the language complexity expressed in a ToS is vastly different to anything written that's really intended for users to read. People with chronic illnesses experience brain fog and may not find it easy to read a document like a ToS, the elderly, young and those who use english as a second language are also more likely to have issues parsing one. Even despite that point the software is currently in violation of its own terms of service. If it sends telemetry before you can open the settings panel then clearly you cannot "control what information the Software collects in the settings panel", as the preceding telemetry message can't be prevented.
marcosdumay 7y ago
I have ~2.5k packages currently installed on this computer I'm using. I frequently access 10 different computers directly, with very different configurations. Those TOS have usually between 10 and 100 pages, the mean seems to be on the lower end, probably around 20. That would make 500k pages of unreadable legalese that I would be required to know by hearth and not miss any detail. A TOS also usually changes every year, so those numbers are yearly. So yeah, people don't read the TOS and complain. Rightly so. On practice it's not that large a problem, because a TOS on software running on my computer is an extremely user hostile action that completely removes a software from my consideration.
- jve 7y ago
  Don't get me wrong. Lengthy TOS is an issue of itself. It's just that users who seek privacy should know how to evaluate it. We are kind of getting closer to improve the situation with... GDPR. Makes software owners come up with, uh-oh, consent dialogs. Pro: User can see where his data go. And presenting this info is a requirement. Cons: Those annoying dialogs...
  - lucy_gatenby 7y ago
    > It's just that users who seek privacy should know how to evaluate it. No. It's the vulnerable, the young, the naive, those just starting out that should be protected by default.
sneak 7y ago
A text editor is not a service. Because there is no service, there can be no terms of service. It is software, and the terms of using that software are the license it is released under. Downloading free as in freedom software does not bind you to any terms of service other than the license to that software, which in this case is the MIT license.

by jve 7y ago

chownie 7y ago

I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect users to read the ToS to find out whether their text editor will phone home. This also doesn't excuse the editor sending analytics for users who opt out of analytics.

jve 7y ago
This is EXACTLY what I expect to find out in TOS. Along with how they use and with whom they share the data (privacy policy). TOS actually is stronger than preferences. If TOS doesn't state that I can opt out, I don't expect that I'm opted out of everything, even when I set such preferences in software. And that they can introduce some phoning home at will, as long as they comply with their TOS.
- chownie 7y ago
  That answers a different question, whether you expect that content to be in the ToS or not isn't relevant. I asked whether it's reasonable to expect users to search the ToS to understand the behaviour of their editor. I don't think it is reasonable, the language complexity expressed in a ToS is vastly different to anything written that's really intended for users to read. People with chronic illnesses experience brain fog and may not find it easy to read a document like a ToS, the elderly, young and those who use english as a second language are also more likely to have issues parsing one. Even despite that point the software is currently in violation of its own terms of service. If it sends telemetry before you can open the settings panel then clearly you cannot "control what information the Software collects in the settings panel", as the preceding telemetry message can't be prevented.

marcosdumay 7y ago

I have ~2.5k packages currently installed on this computer I'm using. I frequently access 10 different computers directly, with very different configurations. Those TOS have usually between 10 and 100 pages, the mean seems to be on the lower end, probably around 20. That would make 500k pages of unreadable legalese that I would be required to know by hearth and not miss any detail. A TOS also usually changes every year, so those numbers are yearly. So yeah, people don't read the TOS and complain. Rightly so. On practice it's not that large a problem, because a TOS on software running on my computer is an extremely user hostile action that completely removes a software from my consideration.

jve 7y ago
Don't get me wrong. Lengthy TOS is an issue of itself. It's just that users who seek privacy should know how to evaluate it. We are kind of getting closer to improve the situation with... GDPR. Makes software owners come up with, uh-oh, consent dialogs. Pro: User can see where his data go. And presenting this info is a requirement. Cons: Those annoying dialogs...
- lucy_gatenby 7y ago
  > It's just that users who seek privacy should know how to evaluate it. No. It's the vulnerable, the young, the naive, those just starting out that should be protected by default.

sneak 7y ago

A text editor is not a service. Because there is no service, there can be no terms of service. It is software, and the terms of using that software are the license it is released under. Downloading free as in freedom software does not bind you to any terms of service other than the license to that software, which in this case is the MIT license.