5 ms·

It's also domestic corruption, trading tariff waivers for corporate political support (or at least silence)

kortilla 7y ago
Do you consider it corruption to offer free money in exchange for votes (I.e. many of the contenders for the Democratic primary in the US)?
- corporate_shi11 7y ago
  “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury.” - Alexander Fraser Tytler
  - eru 7y ago
    Switzerland has been around as a (relatively) small government democracy for quite a while. There are regular direct democracy polls on spending and taxes.
    - corporate_shi11 7y ago
      Switzerland also doesn't have many poor people.
      - newyankee 7y ago
        classic understatement but yes it helps to have a population that is well off, educated and can wisely make the decision.
      - winter_blue 7y ago
        Switzerland used to be quite poor until not long ago. It was a mostly subsistence farming country, and throughout the 1800s, it was a nation that people emigrated from.
      - nutjob2 7y ago
        7% doesn't sound insignificant and is roughly comparable to other highly developed European countries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_Switzerland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_Switzerland Also, local reporting on Swiss poverty: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yI4ygNr5Mg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yI4ygNr5Mg
      - pjmlp 7y ago
        Switzerland does have quite a few poor people, the difference being that someone on the poverty limit in Switzerland still happens to look quite alright from the outside. The problem is that one cannot just look at income, rather what someone has to pay for as well, and in Switzerland you pay for everything. I think that many Swiss can relate to this, when I lived there we used to joke that only breathing is free.
      - anoncake 7y ago
        Democracy seems to be working quite well.
  - anoncake 7y ago
    That doesn't make sense. The voters already collectively own the treasury of their state. And how exactly is it a requirement for a democracy to exist that it implements your favorite policies?
    - eru 7y ago
      > The voters already collectively own the treasury of their state. The situation is bit more complicated than that. The voters aren't one monolithic entity. So government has lots of principle-agent problems. Check out Public Choice theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_choice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_choice).
- rawburt 7y ago
  lol. give me a break
- aidenn0 7y ago
  There is no offer of money for votes. In fact, many of the poorest areas of the country are more likely to vote Republican.
  - knolax 7y ago
    I think he's referring to UBI.
    - kazagistar 7y ago
      UBI also isn't money for votes, its money regardless of votes. I can vote for UBI and lose more in taxes then I gain, and I can vote against it and still benefit. That sounds like about as non corrupt as it gets.
      - aidenn0 7y ago
        I'm still not sure where I stand on UBI, but it's interesting that I've seen some economic liberals that are huge fans, other economic liberals that dismiss it as people "voting themselves money" and I've seen socialists that are huge fans of it and socialists that dismiss it as "an attempt by Capital to bribe the proletariat." Meanwhile most moderates I know seem to think it a pipe dream.
      - kortilla 7y ago
        The funny thing is that you’ve also described exactly how tax breaks and deregulation for industries works. Google got massive benefits of Trump being president despite not donating to him. A politician promising tax breaks for an industry is no different than a politician promising tax breaks for low income people.
- kevingadd 7y ago
  Who else is in your "many" other than the one person (polling at absurdly low numbers) offering handouts, Andrew Yang? It's not even clear whether his offer is legal.
- eru 7y ago
  Two wrongs don't make a right.

Do you consider it corruption to offer free money in exchange for votes (I.e. many of the contenders for the Democratic primary in the US)?

corporate_shi11 7y ago
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury.” - Alexander Fraser Tytler
- eru 7y ago
  Switzerland has been around as a (relatively) small government democracy for quite a while. There are regular direct democracy polls on spending and taxes.
  - corporate_shi11 7y ago
    Switzerland also doesn't have many poor people.
    - newyankee 7y ago
      classic understatement but yes it helps to have a population that is well off, educated and can wisely make the decision.
    - winter_blue 7y ago
      Switzerland used to be quite poor until not long ago. It was a mostly subsistence farming country, and throughout the 1800s, it was a nation that people emigrated from.
    - nutjob2 7y ago
      7% doesn't sound insignificant and is roughly comparable to other highly developed European countries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_Switzerland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_Switzerland Also, local reporting on Swiss poverty: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yI4ygNr5Mg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yI4ygNr5Mg
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      Switzerland does have quite a few poor people, the difference being that someone on the poverty limit in Switzerland still happens to look quite alright from the outside. The problem is that one cannot just look at income, rather what someone has to pay for as well, and in Switzerland you pay for everything. I think that many Swiss can relate to this, when I lived there we used to joke that only breathing is free.
    - anoncake 7y ago
      Democracy seems to be working quite well.
- anoncake 7y ago
  That doesn't make sense. The voters already collectively own the treasury of their state. And how exactly is it a requirement for a democracy to exist that it implements your favorite policies?
  - eru 7y ago
    > The voters already collectively own the treasury of their state. The situation is bit more complicated than that. The voters aren't one monolithic entity. So government has lots of principle-agent problems. Check out Public Choice theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_choice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_choice).
rawburt 7y ago
lol. give me a break
aidenn0 7y ago
There is no offer of money for votes. In fact, many of the poorest areas of the country are more likely to vote Republican.
- knolax 7y ago
  I think he's referring to UBI.
  - kazagistar 7y ago
    UBI also isn't money for votes, its money regardless of votes. I can vote for UBI and lose more in taxes then I gain, and I can vote against it and still benefit. That sounds like about as non corrupt as it gets.
    - aidenn0 7y ago
      I'm still not sure where I stand on UBI, but it's interesting that I've seen some economic liberals that are huge fans, other economic liberals that dismiss it as people "voting themselves money" and I've seen socialists that are huge fans of it and socialists that dismiss it as "an attempt by Capital to bribe the proletariat." Meanwhile most moderates I know seem to think it a pipe dream.
    - kortilla 7y ago
      The funny thing is that you’ve also described exactly how tax breaks and deregulation for industries works. Google got massive benefits of Trump being president despite not donating to him. A politician promising tax breaks for an industry is no different than a politician promising tax breaks for low income people.
kevingadd 7y ago
Who else is in your "many" other than the one person (polling at absurdly low numbers) offering handouts, Andrew Yang? It's not even clear whether his offer is legal.
eru 7y ago
Two wrongs don't make a right.