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It sometimes seems that Google uses open-source as more of a marketing ploy than a commitment to respecting user freedom. Why doesn't Google (first) fully open

It sometimes seems that Google uses open-source as more of a marketing ploy than a commitment to respecting user freedom. Why doesn't Google (first) fully open-source the entire Android platform before worrying about "silicon"? This would of course include all of their apps (e.g. GMail, Google Maps, Docs, etc.) as well as the Playstore Framework. It is hard for me to take their words all that seriously when they are holding back some of the most important pieces from their users. Ditto for Microsoft.

zozbot234 7y ago
> (e.g. GMail, Google Maps, Docs, etc.) as well as the Playstore Framework. These "apps" are all based around interaction with Google services. Maybe they could release open source versions of those, but then the users would be left with the hassle of having to pay Google for API accesses by the open source code they're running. Most users would simply not bother, and stick to whatever Google is providing for free.
- selfishgene 7y ago
  They could offer a digitally signed binary that is free (as in beer ... which would presumably be supported by ads that could not easily be stripped out) and a parallel open-source (ad-free) version that charges users directly for API access (preferably with an "always free" tier of use).
  - beatgammit 7y ago
    I would pay for that second tier provided they don't mine API usage for data for their search product. I would love to opt out of Google data mining, and I'm happy to pay for the services I use. The closest they have is their G-suite, but I think they still mine data from paying customers.
- derefr 7y ago
  The Google Cloud client libraries are open-source; I don't really see the difference. I should also point out: often, with this type of project (in-the-open development of a client for a paid service) the client comes with some sort of stub emulator for the service. FOSS developers can test their changes against the emulator, and then submit PRs, which then get run by CI against the real service.
mch82 7y ago
> Why doesn't Google (first) fully open-source... Because sustainable open source rarely works that way. Sustainable open source projects focus on three things: (1) identify the bits that are common across many applications, (2) establish an open source standard for those bits, (3) sustain the bits by making it easy for other people/orgs to use them & contribute to maintaining them. Edit: Sometimes a tool like Blender is open source and feature complete. So it seems like “the whole thing” is open source. However, in those scenarios the tool usually replaces a very expensive proprietary tool (Maya, in the Blender example) that is a single step in a larger business process (like making a 3D animation).
- slimsag 7y ago
  Your Blender example doesn't really hold up in this case because it's not like Blender has been funded historically by some large company replacing the expensive proprietary tool Maya. In fact, there are many fully open source products that do not fit into some larger corporate-backed business model: VLC, Gimp, ffmpeg, to name just a few.
  - nine_k 7y ago
    But Blender specifically has been proprietary for many years, before being crowdfunded into an open-source project. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blender_(software)#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blender_(software)#History
  - mch82 7y ago
    It’s an imperfect example, but the Maya to Blender transition is starting to happen now. See “Epic Games supports Blender Foundation with $1.2 million Epic MegaGrant“, https://www.blender.org/press/epic-games-supports-blender-foundation-with-1-2-million-epic-megagrant/ https://www.blender.org/press/epic-games-supports-blender-fo...
    - greggman2 7y ago
      I would love to see Blender become competitive with Maya etc but it's got a long long way to go. Though it might be closer than most, in part because it's competition is so expensive people are looking for alternatives. I sponsor Blender to help see that day happen and I wish big companies that are paying for Maya, Houdini, 3DSMax, ZBrush licenses would instead spend all that money paying engineers to contribute to Blender. But, as of today, while 2.8 made big strides, it's still missing huge swaths of features available in Maya and others.
neilparikh 7y ago
This tool isn't open sourced by Google, it's a guest post by a Google Summer of Code mentor, so Android/Google apps aren't relevant here. From the article: "By Steve Hoover, Redwood EDA, Google Summer of Code mentor".
tssva 7y ago
None of those are part of the Android platform. They are clients to Google services. Many products including those from Amazon have been produced using the Android platform without access to any of them. If Microsoft open sourced Windows would you complain that it wasn't really open sourced because they didn't open source Microsoft Office?
joe_the_user 7y ago
How is it HN news seems happy to let people derail threads for Google hate?
- randomsearch 7y ago
  It isn’t hate if someone criticises a company and states clear reasons, which we may or not disagree with.
peter_retief 7y ago
I think you are being a bit hard on Google here, they are strategic but also quite generous with open-source.
- jeen02 7y ago
  You only get upvotes for Google hate here.
  - peter_retief 7y ago
    Google are great, upvote/downvote what does it matter :)
lawrenceyan 7y ago
In order to truly to show Google is committed to open source, they have to open source Gmail, Google Maps, Google Docs, etc.??? Such extreme exaggeration makes it difficult to take your comment seriously.
- sneak 7y ago
  In theory, if you are philosophically committed to the idea of open source, it logically follows that every binary you release should come with full source, without exception. This is the case for me, for example. I never release software without source.

zozbot234 7y ago

> (e.g. GMail, Google Maps, Docs, etc.) as well as the Playstore Framework. These "apps" are all based around interaction with Google services. Maybe they could release open source versions of those, but then the users would be left with the hassle of having to pay Google for API accesses by the open source code they're running. Most users would simply not bother, and stick to whatever Google is providing for free.

selfishgene 7y ago
They could offer a digitally signed binary that is free (as in beer ... which would presumably be supported by ads that could not easily be stripped out) and a parallel open-source (ad-free) version that charges users directly for API access (preferably with an "always free" tier of use).
- beatgammit 7y ago
  I would pay for that second tier provided they don't mine API usage for data for their search product. I would love to opt out of Google data mining, and I'm happy to pay for the services I use. The closest they have is their G-suite, but I think they still mine data from paying customers.
derefr 7y ago
The Google Cloud client libraries are open-source; I don't really see the difference. I should also point out: often, with this type of project (in-the-open development of a client for a paid service) the client comes with some sort of stub emulator for the service. FOSS developers can test their changes against the emulator, and then submit PRs, which then get run by CI against the real service.

mch82 7y ago

> Why doesn't Google (first) fully open-source... Because sustainable open source rarely works that way. Sustainable open source projects focus on three things: (1) identify the bits that are common across many applications, (2) establish an open source standard for those bits, (3) sustain the bits by making it easy for other people/orgs to use them & contribute to maintaining them. Edit: Sometimes a tool like Blender is open source and feature complete. So it seems like “the whole thing” is open source. However, in those scenarios the tool usually replaces a very expensive proprietary tool (Maya, in the Blender example) that is a single step in a larger business process (like making a 3D animation).

slimsag 7y ago
Your Blender example doesn't really hold up in this case because it's not like Blender has been funded historically by some large company replacing the expensive proprietary tool Maya. In fact, there are many fully open source products that do not fit into some larger corporate-backed business model: VLC, Gimp, ffmpeg, to name just a few.
- nine_k 7y ago
  But Blender specifically has been proprietary for many years, before being crowdfunded into an open-source project. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blender_(software)#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blender_(software)#History
- mch82 7y ago
  It’s an imperfect example, but the Maya to Blender transition is starting to happen now. See “Epic Games supports Blender Foundation with $1.2 million Epic MegaGrant“, https://www.blender.org/press/epic-games-supports-blender-foundation-with-1-2-million-epic-megagrant/ https://www.blender.org/press/epic-games-supports-blender-fo...
  - greggman2 7y ago
    I would love to see Blender become competitive with Maya etc but it's got a long long way to go. Though it might be closer than most, in part because it's competition is so expensive people are looking for alternatives. I sponsor Blender to help see that day happen and I wish big companies that are paying for Maya, Houdini, 3DSMax, ZBrush licenses would instead spend all that money paying engineers to contribute to Blender. But, as of today, while 2.8 made big strides, it's still missing huge swaths of features available in Maya and others.

neilparikh 7y ago

This tool isn't open sourced by Google, it's a guest post by a Google Summer of Code mentor, so Android/Google apps aren't relevant here. From the article: "By Steve Hoover, Redwood EDA, Google Summer of Code mentor".

tssva 7y ago

None of those are part of the Android platform. They are clients to Google services. Many products including those from Amazon have been produced using the Android platform without access to any of them. If Microsoft open sourced Windows would you complain that it wasn't really open sourced because they didn't open source Microsoft Office?

joe_the_user 7y ago

How is it HN news seems happy to let people derail threads for Google hate?

randomsearch 7y ago
It isn’t hate if someone criticises a company and states clear reasons, which we may or not disagree with.

peter_retief 7y ago

I think you are being a bit hard on Google here, they are strategic but also quite generous with open-source.

jeen02 7y ago
You only get upvotes for Google hate here.
- peter_retief 7y ago
  Google are great, upvote/downvote what does it matter :)

lawrenceyan 7y ago

In order to truly to show Google is committed to open source, they have to open source Gmail, Google Maps, Google Docs, etc.??? Such extreme exaggeration makes it difficult to take your comment seriously.

sneak 7y ago
In theory, if you are philosophically committed to the idea of open source, it logically follows that every binary you release should come with full source, without exception. This is the case for me, for example. I never release software without source.