6 ms·

Tech talent shortage is real. We can't find anyone worth interviewing right now, as a 5 person startup. (And no, we aren't age discriminating)

semiotagonal 7y ago
If I were the sixth person at a five-person startup I'd be forever worried that I was just on the wrong side of the get-rich-if-it-succeeds line.
adamnemecek 7y ago
Pay more
crazypyro 7y ago
The theoretical solution would be to raise how much you are paying.
- sethammons 7y ago
  You can switch "paying" with "given in total compensation." There are those who will take more vacation time in lieu of a higher salary, for example.
  - m0zg 7y ago
    This is an underappreciated point, and also why I started a solo consulting business instead of continuing the 9-5. As a consultant I can set my own hours. The past few weeks were leasurely 25-27 hours per week or so (I track the time, so I know), and I do get paid for every hour I work, including commute, time spent on slack, etc. In this industry there seems to be no place for someone experienced who thinks that working 50-60 hours a week is bullshit, and would like to work half that. That tells me there's no "talent" shortage, since the employers aren't flexible at all when it comes to working part time and receiving proportionally lower pay. The moment you ask to work less than 40 hours a week the employer immediately assumes that either there's something wrong with you or you're willing to work for peanuts.
    - osipov 7y ago
      This. I have an open consulting opportunity please email me to my HN user name at google’s mail service if interested.
sundaeofshock 7y ago
How many people over 50 have you interviewed?
anm89 7y ago
Are you offering a competitive cash salary? I hear this a lot and then it comes out that the company wants people to work for IOUs which unsurprisingly does not generally go well.
aprdm 7y ago
I wonder what problems a 5 person startup is trying to tackle that they can't find technical talent worth interviewing... just from the way you wrote it already makes me feel like a place I wouldn't want to work for
- filoleg 7y ago
  HN is a bubble full of people grinding leetcode, working at a big tech company or a start up, and writing code in their spare time as a hobby. Once you start interviewing people, you will realize how utterly incompetent most of them are. I am talking about people with multiple years of full-time experience in the field and a relevant degree who cannot even implement a basic FizzBuzz. And I am not exaggerating it for comedic value, I legitimately met many people like that by now. Prior to seeing this myself, I could've sworn this was just a joke people used to describe incompetent people, but this is real. And being able to pass FizzBuzz doesn't even scratch the surface of being competent, but a lot of people cannot manage to get past that stage.
  - reaperducer 7y ago
    Honestly, it sounds like more of a problem with the test-givers than the test-takers. People with experience have more dignity than to perform a dog-and-pony show for some startup on a whiteboard. Remember, in this market you need them more than they need you.
    - filoleg 7y ago
      I mean, it isn't just startups that do whiteboard coding interviews. In fact, if you want to check my comments on HN, I said pretty directly that I do not work for a startup. Every single engineer who was or is employed at any big tech company has went through whiteboard interviews. If you are trying to imply that big tech companies cannot manage to attract experienced people, then I question the validity of that.
  - nradov 7y ago
    There are certainly incompetent people in most any industry. But the reality is most organizations manage to keep their systems running and ship products with average or below average developers doing much of the work. How do you reconcile that fact with your observations? Have you considered the possibility that you're asking the wrong questions? Or perhaps your organization isn't good at identifying candidates with low skills but high potential?
layoutIfNeeded 7y ago
You’re probably not offering enough money.
jakebasile 7y ago
I truly, honestly doubt that is the case. Are you hiring remotely or only in an expensive locale? Are you expecting more than 40 hours a week or do you have a good work/life balance? How are your benefits? All of these things matter more the older you get since older engineers tend to already have a home and don't want to move to California, have a more involved personal life, and expect things like medical benefits. You might be discriminating on age without consciously knowing it.
vkou 7y ago
Consider one or more of: 1. Increasing wages. 2. Increasing benefits. (More vacation time, paying for employee education, shorter work-weeks.) 3. Lowering the hiring bar, and spending more effort on mentoring and educating new employees. 4. Hiring remotely. These all, of course, come with costs, and trade-offs. If you don't mind me asking, are you looking for FAANG-level talent? If so, are you paying FAANG-level wages, or providing MicroFaceGoog[1]-level work-life balance? [1] Yes, there are obviously teams at all of those companies that work on death march schedules. They are, generally speaking, the exception.
fiblye 7y ago
Maybe try interviewing a few people who you think "aren't worth interviewing." It could be that your standards are unreasonably high and you're dismissing plenty of capable people. And lets be honest, looking at most job postings, most people have absolute ridiculous expectations of candidates. Most things you can and should be able to train to some extent on the job.
- mattmar96 7y ago
  Fair point. "Aren't worth interviewing" may have been a little harsh. I can assure you, there are no "harsh requirements" on our listing. That would be the case if we had too many applicants! It seems we need to use a recruiter or something, everyone here seems to think its ridiculous that we can't find people.
  - astura 7y ago
    Can you share your job listing(s)?
- robertfw 7y ago
  I just saw a job posting that was looking for someone with 3+ years of experience, and the list of required skills would have taken easily double that working flat out to acquire
  - rumanator 7y ago
    > and the list of required skills would have taken easily double that working flat out to acquire You're reading too much into those requirements. Nice-to-haves are not must-haves. I've been involved in hiring processes for a front-end position that listed non-trivial experience with React and among the half dozen candidates who applied the company even considered a high-schools dropout who only had to show a 50-hour HTML online course.
- maxmalysh 7y ago
  I remember a job posting asking for 5+ years of Android experience in 2013 (Android 1.0 was released in late 2008).
ericd 7y ago
Most startups don't offer nearly enough of an equity stake to compensate for the massive salary gap vs. FAANG. I don't know what your offering is, but I haven't seen an exception to this in a long time.
- lallysingh 7y ago
  This. Wanting a FAANG staff engineer for $180k and equity in a probably-a-bubble environment.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
m0zg 7y ago
That's not talent shortage in the market as a whole, just in your segment of the market. Many people are just unwilling to work at a startup, especially if it pays peanuts. Pay more. Offer more perks that large companies are unwilling to offer. Above all, quit pretending that your equity is worth anything.
lol_jono 7y ago
It sounds like you're not looking hard enough
- mattmar96 7y ago
  This is the real answer, lol. Just wanted to vent. People in this thread are treating me like I'm a shithead listing a position with impossible requirements and terrible pay. I'm not. I'm an engineer on the team and I wrote my comment (passive-aggressively) because my workload is ridiculous. As I understand it, we're having a very difficult time finding people.
  - ThrowawayR2 7y ago
    Relax, this is the same uninformed flak that anybody who's actually had to deal with the talent shortage in person and dares say it on HN gets.
  - monoideism 7y ago
    > As I understand it, we're having a very difficult time finding people. Another possibility is that they don't have enough money to hire another developer, but don't want to admit it to you. Start-up life can be harsh. Don't burn yourself out. I can tell you from experience that it gets harder and harder to come back from burnout each time it happens. If your workload is ridiculous, it may be talk to your boss about adjusting timelines/expectations to something more realistic, or even time to start looking for another job.
  - nradov 7y ago
    We don't think you're a shithead. We just think you don't understand basic economics like the relationship between supply and demand. And that's nothing to be ashamed of, many engineers are ignorant about economics. If you'd like to improve your skills in that area your local community college has courses available.
smabie 7y ago
I think you mean: we can’t find anyone worth interviewing interested in the offered salary. I guarantee that if you double what you’re offering, your “shortage” will go away.
- Redoubts 7y ago
  I hear this a lot, and I likely don’t disagree. But I never see career pages with $$$ next to the job listings. So I’m not sure how most companies get this across. Most I’ve talked to want a phone screen before they have the expectations talk. Generally I’ve just gone by industry reputation, for where to go. But I wonder if there are any hidden gems out there.
  - vkou 7y ago
    > So I’m not sure how most companies get this across. Companies in the US don't advertise pay ranges, but they are easily Google-able, people have friends, Glassdoor is a thing, etc. A junior at Facebook will make ~160k/year, someone good with ~5 years experience (at FB) will make ~300k/year. Most startups want to hire the latter person for the salary of the former, while getting them to work harder, for fewer benefits, and fewer vacation days, all in exchange for... An equity carrot, that has a 1/500 chance of materializing into anything more than lunch money? A chance to 'change the world' - as if writing an app for ordering dogsitters on demand is the moral equal to providing clean drinking water to poor villages - or curing cancer. A chance to be a big fish in a tiny pond? You'll still probably be second fiddle to the CTO, and employees 2 through 5...
    - Redoubts 7y ago
      > Companies in the US don't advertise pay ranges, but they are easily Google-able, people have friends, Glassdoor is a thing, etc. Meh, glassdoor is off by a factor of 3x when checking in with a few of the companies I just interviewed with. They seem to require an account, but it’s similar to reports like this which are comically wrong: https://www.indeed.com/salaries/Software-Engineer-Salaries-at-Citadel https://www.indeed.com/salaries/Software-Engineer-Salaries-a... Sure, you can reach through your network, but price discovery seems pretty bad if you have to do word of mouth.
rosege 7y ago
Or look for someone with the aptitude that could pick up what you need quickly.
taytus 7y ago
You say you are hiring but... You are posting in probably one of the most fertile places to find talent...and there is no link in your bio to your company or personal email. No wonder why you can't find talent.
nradov 7y ago
Gold bar shortage is real. I can't find anyone willing to sell at below the market price. Why are gold merchants so lazy and entitled?
thanhhaimai 7y ago
Salary shortage is real. I can't find any startups worth interviewing right now, as a senior SWE. The offers tend to be 50% of what I currently have (despite the "shortage"). Sorry for the snarky tone, but it should be evident by now that the real shortage is for "highly talented souls willing to work for peanuts"--which is kind of oxymoronic. People want to hire "highly talented" and smart individuals, but expect them to be dumb enough to sell themselves short?
- mattmar96 7y ago
  I never said we were offering peanuts. Competitive salary for the area.
  - dominotw 7y ago
    > Competitive salary for the area. > We can't find anyone worth interviewing right now How can both statements be simultaneously true.
    - mattmar96 7y ago
      Perhaps a large majority of SWE's in our area have a job right now.
      - monoideism 7y ago
        You're right now more or less "featured" in front of one of the largest software communities in the US. Why not post a link to your job?
    - iudqnolq 7y ago
      A phenomenon known as "sticky wages" which means (in part[1]) that people are reluctant to quit and get a new job even if an "economically rational actor" would. 1: The definition also includes the fact that employers are more reluctant to lower wages than they are to increase them, all else equal.
cgh 7y ago
It's pretty regional. If you live in a place that has eg a bad climate or limited outdoors activities, it might be harder to find local people. You should probably consider hiring remote workers, if you haven't already. If you are willing to deal with a bit of hassle, hire Canadians. Same timezones, same CS educations, same language, probably a little cheaper (sorry, fellow Canadians), lots of interest in US startups.
Mountain_Skies 7y ago
Move to Georgia. Atlanta has a very low cost of living, a good business environment, and plenty of world class engineers coming out of Georgia Tech. Of course maybe you don't want to live in a state like Georgia. That's understandable but that's a lifestyle choice, not a talent shortage.
zzzcpan 7y ago
> We can't find anyone __worth__ interviewing right now There is enough research in job markets showing that companies get more picky and advertise more demanding and complicated job requirements as more candidates are available. So your claim is empty, since this is how companies behave regardless of supply. And if you were to measure it, how big artificial barriers or filters are for someone to get hired could be the measure of oversupply, not shortage. With shortage there would be no barriers, everyone applying would be interviewed and likely hired. But given current hazing hours long interview practices it's pretty clear that companies are drowning in oversupply.
masonic 7y ago
shortage is real. We can't find anyone worth interviewing That's an odd statement. Unless you are flying somebody in, the cost of an interview is trivial compared to broader onboarding costs. Perhaps a mention of your specialty and location is in order. Your HN public profile is blank.
altmind 7y ago
Maybe you are having a hiring problem? Have you tried testing your candidate funnel?

semiotagonal 7y ago

If I were the sixth person at a five-person startup I'd be forever worried that I was just on the wrong side of the get-rich-if-it-succeeds line.

adamnemecek 7y ago

Pay more

crazypyro 7y ago

The theoretical solution would be to raise how much you are paying.

sethammons 7y ago
You can switch "paying" with "given in total compensation." There are those who will take more vacation time in lieu of a higher salary, for example.
- m0zg 7y ago
  This is an underappreciated point, and also why I started a solo consulting business instead of continuing the 9-5. As a consultant I can set my own hours. The past few weeks were leasurely 25-27 hours per week or so (I track the time, so I know), and I do get paid for every hour I work, including commute, time spent on slack, etc. In this industry there seems to be no place for someone experienced who thinks that working 50-60 hours a week is bullshit, and would like to work half that. That tells me there's no "talent" shortage, since the employers aren't flexible at all when it comes to working part time and receiving proportionally lower pay. The moment you ask to work less than 40 hours a week the employer immediately assumes that either there's something wrong with you or you're willing to work for peanuts.
  - osipov 7y ago
    This. I have an open consulting opportunity please email me to my HN user name at google’s mail service if interested.

sundaeofshock 7y ago

How many people over 50 have you interviewed?

anm89 7y ago

Are you offering a competitive cash salary? I hear this a lot and then it comes out that the company wants people to work for IOUs which unsurprisingly does not generally go well.

aprdm 7y ago

I wonder what problems a 5 person startup is trying to tackle that they can't find technical talent worth interviewing... just from the way you wrote it already makes me feel like a place I wouldn't want to work for

filoleg 7y ago
HN is a bubble full of people grinding leetcode, working at a big tech company or a start up, and writing code in their spare time as a hobby. Once you start interviewing people, you will realize how utterly incompetent most of them are. I am talking about people with multiple years of full-time experience in the field and a relevant degree who cannot even implement a basic FizzBuzz. And I am not exaggerating it for comedic value, I legitimately met many people like that by now. Prior to seeing this myself, I could've sworn this was just a joke people used to describe incompetent people, but this is real. And being able to pass FizzBuzz doesn't even scratch the surface of being competent, but a lot of people cannot manage to get past that stage.
- reaperducer 7y ago
  Honestly, it sounds like more of a problem with the test-givers than the test-takers. People with experience have more dignity than to perform a dog-and-pony show for some startup on a whiteboard. Remember, in this market you need them more than they need you.
  - filoleg 7y ago
    I mean, it isn't just startups that do whiteboard coding interviews. In fact, if you want to check my comments on HN, I said pretty directly that I do not work for a startup. Every single engineer who was or is employed at any big tech company has went through whiteboard interviews. If you are trying to imply that big tech companies cannot manage to attract experienced people, then I question the validity of that.
- nradov 7y ago
  There are certainly incompetent people in most any industry. But the reality is most organizations manage to keep their systems running and ship products with average or below average developers doing much of the work. How do you reconcile that fact with your observations? Have you considered the possibility that you're asking the wrong questions? Or perhaps your organization isn't good at identifying candidates with low skills but high potential?

layoutIfNeeded 7y ago

You’re probably not offering enough money.

jakebasile 7y ago

I truly, honestly doubt that is the case. Are you hiring remotely or only in an expensive locale? Are you expecting more than 40 hours a week or do you have a good work/life balance? How are your benefits? All of these things matter more the older you get since older engineers tend to already have a home and don't want to move to California, have a more involved personal life, and expect things like medical benefits. You might be discriminating on age without consciously knowing it.

vkou 7y ago

Consider one or more of: 1. Increasing wages. 2. Increasing benefits. (More vacation time, paying for employee education, shorter work-weeks.) 3. Lowering the hiring bar, and spending more effort on mentoring and educating new employees. 4. Hiring remotely. These all, of course, come with costs, and trade-offs. If you don't mind me asking, are you looking for FAANG-level talent? If so, are you paying FAANG-level wages, or providing MicroFaceGoog[1]-level work-life balance? [1] Yes, there are obviously teams at all of those companies that work on death march schedules. They are, generally speaking, the exception.

fiblye 7y ago

Maybe try interviewing a few people who you think "aren't worth interviewing." It could be that your standards are unreasonably high and you're dismissing plenty of capable people. And lets be honest, looking at most job postings, most people have absolute ridiculous expectations of candidates. Most things you can and should be able to train to some extent on the job.

mattmar96 7y ago
Fair point. "Aren't worth interviewing" may have been a little harsh. I can assure you, there are no "harsh requirements" on our listing. That would be the case if we had too many applicants! It seems we need to use a recruiter or something, everyone here seems to think its ridiculous that we can't find people.
- astura 7y ago
  Can you share your job listing(s)?
robertfw 7y ago
I just saw a job posting that was looking for someone with 3+ years of experience, and the list of required skills would have taken easily double that working flat out to acquire
- rumanator 7y ago
  > and the list of required skills would have taken easily double that working flat out to acquire You're reading too much into those requirements. Nice-to-haves are not must-haves. I've been involved in hiring processes for a front-end position that listed non-trivial experience with React and among the half dozen candidates who applied the company even considered a high-schools dropout who only had to show a 50-hour HTML online course.
maxmalysh 7y ago
I remember a job posting asking for 5+ years of Android experience in 2013 (Android 1.0 was released in late 2008).

ericd 7y ago

Most startups don't offer nearly enough of an equity stake to compensate for the massive salary gap vs. FAANG. I don't know what your offering is, but I haven't seen an exception to this in a long time.

lallysingh 7y ago
This. Wanting a FAANG staff engineer for $180k and equity in a probably-a-bubble environment.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

m0zg 7y ago

That's not talent shortage in the market as a whole, just in your segment of the market. Many people are just unwilling to work at a startup, especially if it pays peanuts. Pay more. Offer more perks that large companies are unwilling to offer. Above all, quit pretending that your equity is worth anything.

lol_jono 7y ago

It sounds like you're not looking hard enough

mattmar96 7y ago
This is the real answer, lol. Just wanted to vent. People in this thread are treating me like I'm a shithead listing a position with impossible requirements and terrible pay. I'm not. I'm an engineer on the team and I wrote my comment (passive-aggressively) because my workload is ridiculous. As I understand it, we're having a very difficult time finding people.
- ThrowawayR2 7y ago
  Relax, this is the same uninformed flak that anybody who's actually had to deal with the talent shortage in person and dares say it on HN gets.
- monoideism 7y ago
  > As I understand it, we're having a very difficult time finding people. Another possibility is that they don't have enough money to hire another developer, but don't want to admit it to you. Start-up life can be harsh. Don't burn yourself out. I can tell you from experience that it gets harder and harder to come back from burnout each time it happens. If your workload is ridiculous, it may be talk to your boss about adjusting timelines/expectations to something more realistic, or even time to start looking for another job.
- nradov 7y ago
  We don't think you're a shithead. We just think you don't understand basic economics like the relationship between supply and demand. And that's nothing to be ashamed of, many engineers are ignorant about economics. If you'd like to improve your skills in that area your local community college has courses available.

smabie 7y ago

I think you mean: we can’t find anyone worth interviewing interested in the offered salary. I guarantee that if you double what you’re offering, your “shortage” will go away.

Redoubts 7y ago
I hear this a lot, and I likely don’t disagree. But I never see career pages with $$$ next to the job listings. So I’m not sure how most companies get this across. Most I’ve talked to want a phone screen before they have the expectations talk. Generally I’ve just gone by industry reputation, for where to go. But I wonder if there are any hidden gems out there.
- vkou 7y ago
  > So I’m not sure how most companies get this across. Companies in the US don't advertise pay ranges, but they are easily Google-able, people have friends, Glassdoor is a thing, etc. A junior at Facebook will make ~160k/year, someone good with ~5 years experience (at FB) will make ~300k/year. Most startups want to hire the latter person for the salary of the former, while getting them to work harder, for fewer benefits, and fewer vacation days, all in exchange for... An equity carrot, that has a 1/500 chance of materializing into anything more than lunch money? A chance to 'change the world' - as if writing an app for ordering dogsitters on demand is the moral equal to providing clean drinking water to poor villages - or curing cancer. A chance to be a big fish in a tiny pond? You'll still probably be second fiddle to the CTO, and employees 2 through 5...
  - Redoubts 7y ago
    > Companies in the US don't advertise pay ranges, but they are easily Google-able, people have friends, Glassdoor is a thing, etc. Meh, glassdoor is off by a factor of 3x when checking in with a few of the companies I just interviewed with. They seem to require an account, but it’s similar to reports like this which are comically wrong: https://www.indeed.com/salaries/Software-Engineer-Salaries-at-Citadel https://www.indeed.com/salaries/Software-Engineer-Salaries-a... Sure, you can reach through your network, but price discovery seems pretty bad if you have to do word of mouth.

rosege 7y ago

Or look for someone with the aptitude that could pick up what you need quickly.

taytus 7y ago

You say you are hiring but... You are posting in probably one of the most fertile places to find talent...and there is no link in your bio to your company or personal email. No wonder why you can't find talent.

nradov 7y ago

Gold bar shortage is real. I can't find anyone willing to sell at below the market price. Why are gold merchants so lazy and entitled?

thanhhaimai 7y ago

Salary shortage is real. I can't find any startups worth interviewing right now, as a senior SWE. The offers tend to be 50% of what I currently have (despite the "shortage"). Sorry for the snarky tone, but it should be evident by now that the real shortage is for "highly talented souls willing to work for peanuts"--which is kind of oxymoronic. People want to hire "highly talented" and smart individuals, but expect them to be dumb enough to sell themselves short?

mattmar96 7y ago
I never said we were offering peanuts. Competitive salary for the area.
- dominotw 7y ago
  > Competitive salary for the area. > We can't find anyone worth interviewing right now How can both statements be simultaneously true.
  - mattmar96 7y ago
    Perhaps a large majority of SWE's in our area have a job right now.
    - monoideism 7y ago
      You're right now more or less "featured" in front of one of the largest software communities in the US. Why not post a link to your job?
  - iudqnolq 7y ago
    A phenomenon known as "sticky wages" which means (in part[1]) that people are reluctant to quit and get a new job even if an "economically rational actor" would. 1: The definition also includes the fact that employers are more reluctant to lower wages than they are to increase them, all else equal.

cgh 7y ago

It's pretty regional. If you live in a place that has eg a bad climate or limited outdoors activities, it might be harder to find local people. You should probably consider hiring remote workers, if you haven't already. If you are willing to deal with a bit of hassle, hire Canadians. Same timezones, same CS educations, same language, probably a little cheaper (sorry, fellow Canadians), lots of interest in US startups.

Mountain_Skies 7y ago

Move to Georgia. Atlanta has a very low cost of living, a good business environment, and plenty of world class engineers coming out of Georgia Tech. Of course maybe you don't want to live in a state like Georgia. That's understandable but that's a lifestyle choice, not a talent shortage.

zzzcpan 7y ago

> We can't find anyone __worth__ interviewing right now There is enough research in job markets showing that companies get more picky and advertise more demanding and complicated job requirements as more candidates are available. So your claim is empty, since this is how companies behave regardless of supply. And if you were to measure it, how big artificial barriers or filters are for someone to get hired could be the measure of oversupply, not shortage. With shortage there would be no barriers, everyone applying would be interviewed and likely hired. But given current hazing hours long interview practices it's pretty clear that companies are drowning in oversupply.

masonic 7y ago

shortage is real. We can't find anyone worth interviewing That's an odd statement. Unless you are flying somebody in, the cost of an interview is trivial compared to broader onboarding costs. Perhaps a mention of your specialty and location is in order. Your HN public profile is blank.

altmind 7y ago

Maybe you are having a hiring problem? Have you tried testing your candidate funnel?