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Show HN: A small bootstrapped independent VPN company in the Netherlands
- 01CGAT 7y agoEverybody here gets a 25% discount for 12 months with de couponcode HACKERNEWS ;-)
- deca6cda37d0 7y agoCoupon code doesn’t work
- NiekvdMaas 7y agoWhy focus on Apple devices only? It seems like a strange business decision to limit a general service to a minority of the market only.
- brightball 7y agoI'd assume the answer is "bootstrapped" so they're extremely focused on one thing.
- Skunkleton 7y agoLooks like it’s based on open vpn. They provide open vpn configs to use on other platforms. Edit: a word
- penagwin 7y agoIt does appear to be openvpn based, but if they were focused on launching their product and only had apple products on hand then that's likely why it's mac/ios only. I'd expect that they'll have other platforms soon.
- 01CGAT 7y agoAll true. You have to start somewhere, and the first focus was on Apple devices, apps for other platforms will soon follow. Meanwhile examples of OpenVPN config files are available too, so you can use the WifiMask service on any OpenVPN capable device: https://www.wifimask.com/contact#androidwindows https://www.wifimask.com/contact#androidwindows
- ropiwqefjnpoa 7y agoI think it's a good place to start, especially to avoid scaling issues.
- yellowarchangel 7y agoIsn't Netherlands in the nine eyes? EDIT: "We will never share your personal information with any third party, except when we need to respond to a legal request from Dutch authorities" - https://www.wifimask.com/terms https://www.wifimask.com/terms As a VPN service that means it is not thoughtful about privacy.
- tdons 7y agoYes. Our intelligence agency (AIVD) allegedly facilitated the planting of stuxnet (they had a guy in there or something) So it'd be reasonable to say that "we're not uncooperative"
- sm4rk0 7y agoExcellent point.
- jacquesm 7y agoAs a counterpoint: any VPN service that claims that they will ignore the authorities legal requests is lying. No matter what, as soon as it is a business, has a registered address and a nominal director it can be put under pressure.
- 01CGAT 7y agoI think this is true. We want to be as honest and open as possible, that includes being honest about the laws we have to comply too. On the other hand, we have a strict no log policy, we have nothing to hand over to authorities accept for the registered email address, a hashed password and the last 4 numbers of a creditcard. Authorities will need to find different ways to get the information they want.
- jacquesm 7y agoA 'no log policy' is a hard one, it may be true but you can't really prove a negative. So it is as good as your word and your reputation, which in this case may be very good but it may not be enough to reduce skepticism. FWIW I do tech DD for a living and I've seen several places that had 'no log' policies on the outside and yet they would occasionally - or even structurally - log data in order to comply with the law. The 'WBT' (Retenion duty for Telecommunicationsdata) has been disbanded, which should work to your advantage, but the GDPR makes explicit room for the accomodation of legal and regulatory requirements and this in turn may transcend your 'no log' policy. Please make sure you have appropriate legal advice on the subject, it is complex and getting it wrong can really bite you. Best of luck with your company!
- bitcoinmoney 7y agoCan you share more about financial side? And customer acquisition strategy including costs?
- zhte415 7y agoFirst, it looks good like you declare who you are. Many VPN providers seem to want to hide their real identities which is a big red flag. I couldn't see from the website what your VPN is based on in terms of protocol? Or home brewed? OpenVPN? Have you had 3rd party audits? Have you considered alternative payment forms? Such as Bitcoin or other? From your Terms of Service 'What we do not allow on or from our network...' how do you track these? Do you provide a transparency report summarising legal, copyright etc requests made, action taken? Also from ToS 'What we need our customers to do: - Use responsible disclosure in the event any security vulnerabilities occur in our website, software or infrastructure.' Do you have a public disclosure policy notifying of vulnerabilities? Choosing a VPN involves placing a lot of trust in a 3rd party. Hence questions.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- 01CGAT 7y agoThank you for your questions and feedback! WifiMask uses OpenVPN for the macOS app and IKEv2/IPSec for iOS. We haven't had 3rd party audits yet, this is definitely on our wish list, because we understand it's all about trust. Alternative payments like bitcoin are on the list as well, we aim for total anonymity for our users, payments are part of that. To be honest we can't track any illegal activity, because we have a strict no log policy, all we can do now is say it is not allowed. We have nothing to hand over to enforcement either, they have to find different ways of getting the information they want. We should investigate and think about transparency reports and a public disclosure policy too, thanks!
- KayMW 7y agoThen... May I ask why only Apple devices are officially supported right now？
- nvrspyx 7y agoI have no affiliation with the service, but I assume that: 1. They're small 2. They're new 3. Their team has more experience developing for Apple devices, thus it was quicker to release for those devices first before tackling Windows, Android, and/or Linux. What they could do in the meantime is create a web-based tool to generate configurations for OpenVPN and/or Wireguard, like Mullvad does.
- dylz 7y agoSome feedback/q's: - Your last two bullet points for 'what we do not allow' is missing newlines (https://www.wifimask.com/terms https://www.wifimask.com/terms) - You load a number of JS files from third party CDNs including Cloudflare and Google without subresource integrity - What does this offer me? It seems a lot more restrictive than other companies at lower price points, inability to use it on own libre devices, requiring proprietary software? How is this significantly different than renting a VM or two? - Based on your cipher list in features, this is an openvpn wrapper? - "WifiMask will also use your Personal Data to provide you with news, special offers and general information about other goods, services and events which we offer that are similar to those that you have already purchased or enquired about." - This sounds like there is no opt out, no "if you choose to", just that special offers are mandatory to receive
- 01CGAT 7y agoMany thanks for your feedback! Much appreciated. The missing newlines and subresource integrity are now fixed. The Privacy Policy is now updated with information on how to opt-out. WifiMask uses OpenVPN for the macOS app and IKEv2/IPSec for iOS. Examples of OpenVPN config files can be found at https://www.wifimask.com/contact#androidwindows https://www.wifimask.com/contact#androidwindows which allows you to use the WifiMask service on every OpenVPN capable device. Meanwhile an Android and Windows app are in development, so stay tuned. ;-)
- dylz 7y agoNo 2FA other than mandatory phone number? This is a really, really bad thing. (+ forcing proprietary app?) Can't find list of hostnames to use with OVPN, seemingly
- 01CGAT 7y agoThe optional 2FA used is Authy, you activate Authy with your phonenumber only once, after that you use Authy to login to your account. So 2FA is not done through SMS text messages for example, where hijacking could be a problem. Good one with the list of hostnames, I will prepare one, for now you can take a look at this JSON file: https://vpnserver.wifimask.net/vpnservers.json https://vpnserver.wifimask.net/vpnservers.json
- wolco 7y agoI'm not sure I agree with pushing responsibilities on customers. If you miss some security item or if you make my account a super admin on signup I shouldn't have some responsibility to help you fix it. What we need our customers to do: - Use responsible disclosure in the event any security vulnerabilities occur in our website, software or infrastructure.
- 01CGAT 7y agoI will rephrase it, the intention is not to push responsibilities, we are merely asking our customers to let us know if they ever find a vulnerability. Thanks for the feedback!
- noja 7y agoWhy a .com?
- 01CGAT 7y agoWe have .net, .de, .nl, etc for you too. ;-)
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- jandeboevrie 7y agoI've worked with the founder (Joost H., Remy says Hi). Can vouch for him, all-round good tech guy. He was a Windows server admin at a big cloud provider (CloudVPS), I was one of the Linux guys. He knows his way around Windows, hyper v and clustering. Even some Linux. Quit his job to work full time on the startup with his brother. Big plus one here. I'd trust wifimask if I wasn't capable of hosting my own servers and needed a VPN.
- 01CGAT 7y agoHi Remy! Thanks for your support! :-)
- 01CGAT 7y agoOh, and if anyone wants to know, WifiMask doesn't run on Windows, it's all Linux. ;-)
- bradknowles 7y agoWhat can you tell us about the rest of your stack? What language(s) do you use? What libraries do you use? What static and dynamic security analysis tools do you use? What style guides and code best practices do you use? Where do you host your code? Where are your backups? Where are your POPs located? Have you had any pen tests run?
- 01CGAT 7y agoThese are a very interesting questions and invite to write more about in detail, which makes me think to write blog articles about it. Stay tuned! ;-)
- deca6cda37d0 7y agoIn the macOS app I cannot copy paste my password into the textfield to login.
- 01CGAT 7y agoI have seen this throughout macOS lately with other apps too, a rightclick will show you the paste option btw. Meanwhile I will investigate this, thanks!
- steveharman 7y agoNo Android option?
- ignoramous 7y agoOne could use any OpenVPN client on Android and Windows, see: https://www.wifimask.com/contact#androidwindows https://www.wifimask.com/contact#androidwindows
- 01CGAT 7y agoUnfortunately not yet, but we are working on it. Meanwhile we have example OpenVPN config files available, which you can use for OpenVPN on Android too: https://www.wifimask.com/contact#androidwindows https://www.wifimask.com/contact#androidwindows
- tenant 7y agovery reasonably priced, if I had a mac I'd be trying it out. what I want is a vpn that the BBC that fools the bbc into thinking I'm in the UK. They're wise to my current one, pia.
- 01CGAT 7y agoUnfortunately BBC iPlayer is also not unblocked with WifiMask since a few weeks. It looks like they bought some anti-VPN algorithms from Netflix.
- ropiwqefjnpoa 7y agoBummer, iOS and MacOS only.
- 01CGAT 7y agoAndroid and Windows will follow soon, meanwhile we have OpenVPN config files for every OpenVPN capable device too ;-) https://wifimask.com/contact#androidwindows https://wifimask.com/contact#androidwindows
- ignoramous 7y agoNice. Wifimask looks promising, esp with ad-blocking built-in. A few questions: Where do you purchase your servers from? How trustworthy are the underlying VPS providers across different countries that you've got presence in? It was recently pointed out that PIA was $30 million in debt... Looks like VPN is a brutal business, but your pricing is (low?) at $4 for unlimited devices and you're bootstrapped. How do you manage to pull it off? What are the upcoming features that you plan? Consequently, what are the most requested features? Thanks.
- 01CGAT 7y agoAll servers are purchased from Digital Ocean only at the moment. I think it is very important to buy servers from a thrustworthy party especially in the VPN business, even if that means we pay a little bit extra. VPN is a brutal business. But because we are bootstrapped and thus no screaming investors/banks behind our backs and we are a small team, costs are low and there's no one who can pull the plug but ourselves. I don't know how many people are working for PIA, but in my opinion you don't need ten's or hundred's of people to build and run a VPN company. I'm not very surprised they are supposedly in that much debt. The most requested feature is an Android app. ;-) And unblocking Netflix ofcourse, but they seem to get even better at blocking VPN's than the Great Firewall of China. What would your feature request be? :-)
- krn 7y ago> All servers are purchased from Digital Ocean only at the moment. Are there any legal or technical reasons to prefer DigitalOcean over OVH and Hetzner? They seem to be both, much more cost-efficient, and much more privacy-oriented. > What would your feature request be? WireGuard.
- 01CGAT 7y agoI have tested both OVH and Hetzner, Digital Ocean's speed is much faster and stable worldwide. I'm definitely keeping an eye on WireGuard, it is very promising.
- 7y ago
- itcrowd 7y agoAs a minor nitpick, I dislike the term "Holland" when referring to the Netherlands. Additionally, you're based in Den Bosch, which is not even in Holland. (you say "made in Holland" in your logo)
- 01CGAT 7y agoI was thinking/reconsidering this same thing today too! ;-) I have to discuss with my brother, but I think it will be changed soon into "Made in the Netherlands". Thanks for the feedback. ;-)
- jna_sh 7y agoI get why though. I frequently get blank looks from non-Europeans when I say I live in the Netherlands, and have to add a reluctant "Holland."
- vincentmarle 7y agoI often have to add an "Amsterdam" in there as well.
- jacquesm 7y agoYou can blame the Dutch Tourism board for that, they unilaterally declared 'The Netherlands' to be too complicated for marketing purposes and decided on Holland. https://www.nbtc.nl/ https://www.nbtc.nl/ So, from on high: Den Bosch is now also in Holland, as are Maastricht, Enschede, Middelburg and Groningen, to great chagrin of those living there. It's been a major point of contention between the NBTC and almost all of the rest of the country but 'Made in Holland' has displaced 'Made in The Netherlands' for quite a while now.
- Someone 7y ago"they unilaterally declared 'The Netherlands' to be too complicated for marketing purposes” That is history :-). https://www.government.nl/latest/news/2019/11/08/new-international-logo-nl-with-stylised-orange-tulip https://www.government.nl/latest/news/2019/11/08/new-interna... (3 weeks ago): "From now on the Netherlands and the Kingdom of the Netherlands can be recognised internationally by a new logo. The logo is characterised by two symbols: NL and a stylised orange tulip. The logo replaces the much used ‘Holland tulip’ of the Netherlands Board of Tourism & Conventions’ (NBTC)” I think it will be ‘a while’ before ‘Holland’ is gone, if only because ’Nederland’ doesn’t work well in cheering on sports teams.
- edf13 7y agoAlready posted in 2016? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11366537 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11366537 So not just launched as I’d expected
- 01CGAT 7y agoWe preferably launch once in a while. ;-) This is not really a launch btw, although it's getting a launch with upvotes on HN this time. But I just wanted to show the current state of WifiMask, it took some time to work on it more and there is still a lot of work to do, like Android and Windows apps.
- Coxa 7y agoAs I see it, many main stream users use such a service to avoid geo blocking. Which is a feature you call teleporting. How do you plan to resolve the problem of Netflix/Amazon Prime blacklisting your VPN servers' IPs? Obviously this is part of your product as you list it as a feature. Hence, people might argue that your product is faulty and ask you to return their money.
- 01CGAT 7y agoWe have now sort of "hidden" the information that Netflix is not unblockable under the FAQ part of this page: https://wifimask.com/contact https://wifimask.com/contact Maybe we should say we cannot unblock Netflix on the frontpage, because I also realize that's why a lot of people are looking for a VPN who does. Nevertheless, besides Netflix, there is still a lot of content to be unblocked. And ofcourse, if unblocking Netflix was the main reason the get WifiMask and it doesn't work, you'll get your money back.
- pcwrt 7y agoSince this is OpenVPN & IKEv2/Ipsec, our router should be able to work with it - making it available to devices other than Apple's. https://www.pcwrt.com/2019/02/how-to-set-up-a-vpn-client-connection-on-the-pcwrt-router/ https://www.pcwrt.com/2019/02/how-to-set-up-a-vpn-client-con...
- Causality1 7y agoConsidering just how aggressive BREIN is, I would not use any VPN service headquartered in the Netherlands.
- 01CGAT 7y agoBREIN doesn't care if you use a VPN to protect your privacy and security when you're not doing anything illegal. Especially not when you're connected to a VPN server somewhere on the other side of the planet. ;-)
- sysbin 7y agoSuggestion for the macOS menubar icon. Make the icon change colour to red when disconnected or the VPN is not in use. Maybe even a notification should be displayed.
- 01CGAT 7y agoNice one! I think an optional notification is the best option, it's hard to notice even a red icon I believe.
- e-moe 7y agoTalking about mobile only VPN: you can also check "Warp+" (https://1.1.1.1/ https://1.1.1.1/) from Cloudflare - unlimited traffic starting from $1/month (depens on your region)
- smush 7y agoI own zero Apple products so am not the customer for this, but I do like being able to support people, not a faceless corporation. That said, I swapped to Mullvad VPN recently due to the Private Internet Access controversy.
- ratsmack 7y agoA Virtual Private Network is only private when you, the user, controls both ends of the connection. It is not private otherwise.
- kd3 7y agoI enjoyed the humor on the website. Good luck with the business.
- 01CGAT 7y agoHaha, thanks!
- a012 7y agoDownloaded the app on MacOS but it isn't compatible with password manager, unable to copy/paste to the input fields. So it's no go
- 01CGAT 7y agoI have seen this throughout macOS lately with other apps too, a rightclick will show you the paste option btw. Meanwhile I will investigate this, thanks!
- thinkling 7y agoFeedback: Installing a dedicated app is a blocker for me, and I imagine it is for people more paranoid about security. I would prefer to use Tunnelblick + a config file.
- commoner 7y agoDedicated VPN apps would be more acceptable if they were open source. A few other VPN services (e.g. Mullvad) open source their apps for transparency, and it would be great to see WifiMask do the same. Open source apps would be a distinguishing feature in what many users see as a commodity service.
- 01CGAT 7y agoThanks for the feedback, we have example OpenVPN config files available for advanced users: https://www.wifimask.com/contact#androidwindows https://www.wifimask.com/contact#androidwindows
- torgian 7y agoI wonder how useful this is behind Chinas firewalll
- 01CGAT 7y agoCustomers are confirming it still works, but I cannot say if it will keep working in the future.
- gigatexal 7y agoI don't care about your stack or disclosing who you are just please don't lie to us about logging. Either you log everything or you log nothing or you encrypt everything and throw away the key or something. Dissidents and journalists everywhere will thank you.
- 01CGAT 7y agoWhat can I say, part of the OpenVPN config: status /dev/null log /dev/null verb 0 Part of the IPSec config: charondebug="asn -1, cfg -1, chd -1, dmn -1, enc -1, esp -1, ike -1, imc -1, imv -1, job -1, knl -1, lib -1, mgr -1, net -1, pts -1, tls -1, tnc -1" (-1 means absolutely silent) There are no client connect/disconnect scripts active. Authorization, Accounting and Authentication log queries in FreeRadius are disabled. All name server logging is disabled. iOS subscription receipt validation logging is disabled. Communication in between servers (for example vpnserver -> dbserver) is encrypted with OpenVPN.
- AtomicOrbital 7y agoI just roll my own vpn using a vps box from ovh or hetzner using repo https://github.com/hwdsl2/setup-ipsec-vpn/blob/master/docs/clients.md https://github.com/hwdsl2/setup-ipsec-vpn/blob/master/docs/c... ... server setup is simple and client connections are solid ... and nobody has the logs but me
- 01CGAT 7y agoMay I suggest to turn off logging for your own server too? :-) Anyone with physical access to the server can access the logs, maybe even when the disks are encrypted, I can imagine someone with the right knowledge can extract the key from RAM on a running server: https://blog.appsecco.com/breaking-full-disk-encryption-from-a-memory-dump-5a868c4fc81e https://blog.appsecco.com/breaking-full-disk-encryption-from...
- arty587 7y agoHi, thanks for the post. I'm also trying to develop a VPN for personal use, between me and my friends, do you have any tips on how to generate the credentials for each user automatically ?
- 01CGAT 7y agoUsing a database for user authentication, you could write a script to fill the database with some usernames and passwords. Or create a webfrontend for users to register their own usernames and passwords.
- arty587 7y agoYes thanks thats a good idea, I was also wondering how OpenVPN behaves with different connections, if it can handle multiple users simultaneously or not
- arty587 7y agoMore specifically, if I have to manually generate keys for each user or if there is a way to automatically generate them
- 01CGAT 7y agoOpenVPN has the duplicate-cn option available, two connections with the same common name are then allowed.
- arty587 7y agoI see, thay may prove helpful but it doesnt really answer my question, can you be more explicit about your answer ?
- 01CGAT 7y agoYou could generate a certificate for each user, but without the duplicate-cn option a user is only allowed 1 connection to the same server. You can also use username/password authentication instead of certificates, also in this case you'll need to set the duplicate-cn option to allow multiple connections from the same user to the same server, because in this case you use the option username-as-common-name and the CN (common name) will then be the username.