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>Does anyone really believe health care prices are correct? Yes. Market clearing prices are set by the intersection of desire/need and scarcity. Health care p

>Does anyone really believe health care prices are correct? Yes. Market clearing prices are set by the intersection of desire/need and scarcity. Health care prices can be virtually as high as you like if you can make health care scarce enough, because pretty much everybody wants to live. The greatest profits are usually found where scarcity meets desperation. This is also why most large corporations spend half of their time trying to tweak the desire side (advertising) and the scarcity side (market manipulation/intellectual property/contractual exclusivity/lobbying) in a bid to secure margins. De beers is probably the clearest example of success in these endeavours.

WalterBright 7y ago
> Health care prices can be virtually as high as you like if you can make health care scarce enough, because pretty much everybody wants to live. Everybody needs food, too, but food is as cheap as dirt.
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 7y ago
  There's a lot more competition in the food market. Bananas too expensive? Just get oranges. Asthma meds too expensive? Take out a loan, drive to anthercountry, or roll the dice and maybe die.
  - WalterBright 7y ago
    Government interference has severely limited competition in health care. For just one example, after Obamacare passed my health insurance provider decided to exit the business, and there is only one provider left in the county. They have a monopoly. I pay far higher premiums now, and can only go to "network" doctors.
    - crdoconnor 7y ago
      The whole idea behind Obamacare was that people like you would pay more so that others got coverage on pre existing conditions and HMOs could make a bit more profit.
    - Red_Leaves_Flyy 7y ago
      Yeah. That's because a half measure was taken. Instead of going full single payer we've gone full capitalist. The higher prices are the obvious consequence of allowing greedy _ to control who gets what quality of healthcare and who dies or goes bankrupt.
- paganel 7y ago
  There's also the fact that very expensive food negatively affects most of the people at pretty much the same time, hence the food riots that were still a fact of life until not very long ago (and they still happen from time to time in places like Egypt or India), but expensive health-care affects just some of the people and more importantly not at the same time, so it's pretty difficult to rally up a mob that would take care of the "healthcare is too expensive problem" in the same way that the "grain is too expensive problem" was being taken care of by the Middle Age crowds.
- crdoconnor 7y ago
  Meaning it's not scarce now and there's no easy way to make it scarce. Like oxygen. I can grow food in my back garden. I can't grow medical care.
  - WalterBright 7y ago
    > I can't grow medical care. Because it's illegal (an awful lot of drugs are plant based).
thaumasiotes 7y ago
> The greatest profits are usually found where scarcity meets desperation. Chinese history records that the premodern government was often suspicious of market trade for a pretty interesting reason -- when a region experienced famine, the market directed food away from the afflicted region. [1] The problem, of course, was that in the premodern context, what most people produced was... food. A famine meant that everyone needed food, but it simultaneously meant that everyone had just been impoverished, such that there wasn't much profit available to be had in selling them the food they needed. [1] It goes without saying that they were also suspicious of market trade for the standard other reasons.
- yyyymmddhhmmss 7y ago
  The United States is experiencing this same phenomenon. See ‘Food Desert’. Poor parts of cities and ppor rural areas have been losing their grocery stores for years now.
kgwgk 7y ago
It's not obvious what "scarcity" is in health care: demand is infinite because everybody is going to die.
- skybrian 7y ago
  Are people willing to spend their entire fortunes avoiding death, leaving nothing to their descendants? Sometimes, but it seems this isn't always true.
nixpulvis 7y ago
You're assuming we actually have rational actors in the "free market", which depends on free access to information. Something I find issue with today.

WalterBright 7y ago

> Health care prices can be virtually as high as you like if you can make health care scarce enough, because pretty much everybody wants to live. Everybody needs food, too, but food is as cheap as dirt.

Red_Leaves_Flyy 7y ago
There's a lot more competition in the food market. Bananas too expensive? Just get oranges. Asthma meds too expensive? Take out a loan, drive to anthercountry, or roll the dice and maybe die.
- WalterBright 7y ago
  Government interference has severely limited competition in health care. For just one example, after Obamacare passed my health insurance provider decided to exit the business, and there is only one provider left in the county. They have a monopoly. I pay far higher premiums now, and can only go to "network" doctors.
  - crdoconnor 7y ago
    The whole idea behind Obamacare was that people like you would pay more so that others got coverage on pre existing conditions and HMOs could make a bit more profit.
  - Red_Leaves_Flyy 7y ago
    Yeah. That's because a half measure was taken. Instead of going full single payer we've gone full capitalist. The higher prices are the obvious consequence of allowing greedy _ to control who gets what quality of healthcare and who dies or goes bankrupt.
paganel 7y ago
There's also the fact that very expensive food negatively affects most of the people at pretty much the same time, hence the food riots that were still a fact of life until not very long ago (and they still happen from time to time in places like Egypt or India), but expensive health-care affects just some of the people and more importantly not at the same time, so it's pretty difficult to rally up a mob that would take care of the "healthcare is too expensive problem" in the same way that the "grain is too expensive problem" was being taken care of by the Middle Age crowds.
crdoconnor 7y ago
Meaning it's not scarce now and there's no easy way to make it scarce. Like oxygen. I can grow food in my back garden. I can't grow medical care.
- WalterBright 7y ago
  > I can't grow medical care. Because it's illegal (an awful lot of drugs are plant based).

thaumasiotes 7y ago

> The greatest profits are usually found where scarcity meets desperation. Chinese history records that the premodern government was often suspicious of market trade for a pretty interesting reason -- when a region experienced famine, the market directed food away from the afflicted region. [1] The problem, of course, was that in the premodern context, what most people produced was... food. A famine meant that everyone needed food, but it simultaneously meant that everyone had just been impoverished, such that there wasn't much profit available to be had in selling them the food they needed. [1] It goes without saying that they were also suspicious of market trade for the standard other reasons.

yyyymmddhhmmss 7y ago
The United States is experiencing this same phenomenon. See ‘Food Desert’. Poor parts of cities and ppor rural areas have been losing their grocery stores for years now.

kgwgk 7y ago

It's not obvious what "scarcity" is in health care: demand is infinite because everybody is going to die.

skybrian 7y ago
Are people willing to spend their entire fortunes avoiding death, leaving nothing to their descendants? Sometimes, but it seems this isn't always true.

nixpulvis 7y ago

You're assuming we actually have rational actors in the "free market", which depends on free access to information. Something I find issue with today.