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But the reality is this: you had the option to leave, they don’t. You survived, they probably won’t.

seanmcdirmid 7y ago
You really don’t have an option to leave without being disciplined. Both systems are using similar tactics to create obedient factory workers; which is exactly the point. The work camp will use just more of that.
- input_sh 7y ago
  It is an option, chosen by the parents. They weren't forced to attend that school based on their ethnicity.
  - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
    For a kid, their parents are often unaware or unsympathetic to their struggles. And just to be clear, the same tactics are applied to Han Chinese (well, the high schools are more harsh, but the Chinese work camp model was already well developed before they decided to do this en masse in Xinjiang). It is horrible, don’t get me wrong, I’m not going to defend it, but I also hope it instills a bit more awareness in our own shortcomings (as well as that of China in general).
    - bogwog 7y ago
      > For a kid, their parents are often unaware or unsympathetic to their struggles So you're just going to generalize on all parents like that? Believe it or not, there are actually some parents out there who are interested in their child's well-being and involved in their life. > I’m not going to defend it It seems to me like you're grasping at straws to do precisely that.
      - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
        “Often” is not a generalization, only an existential of some significant commonality. Having spent 10 years in China and having actually visited Xinjiang before, I can assure you I’m not grasping at any straws.
- atomicity 7y ago
  I like how mentioned this fact. K12 education, church, prison, and re-education through labor are all systems that hold certain people 'captive'. I've always felt arguments like "the parents can choose not to send their kid to their" or "the captor's intention was good" to be insufficient. No matter how that changes, the information/data flows from the captors to the 'captive' person's mind does not change much. At the same time, it might not be possible to eliminate 'captive' information systems, especially if we loosen the definition of 'captive'. For example, you can pretty much only consume news in the language you know so you are held captive. However if you consume only English news, then you're worldview will be biased. English news only covers the more sensational international stories and journalists, who mostly have good intentions, are biased as well. I ended up rambling a bit, but the main point is that axiomatic arguments don't solve the problem and the lines between good/bad are too 'fuzzy'. Practical solutions around info/data flow and a good understanding of how it makes the lives of 'captives' and others in the world might have more potential [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re-education_through_labor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re-education_through_labor
  - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
    Boot camp would be another example, when they want to rebuild recruits as soldiers. There is actually a fine line between acceptable and unacceptable brain washing techniques, I’m not sure what it is.
- 0xcde4c3db 7y ago
  Also, it's a known (but apparently not widely discussed) "security measure" for schools to chain exits shut, in blatant violation of fire code requirements [1] [2]. [1] http://old.seattletimes.com/html/opinion/2002050731_startz01.html http://old.seattletimes.com/html/opinion/2002050731_startz01... [2] https://www.dallasnews.com/news/education/2010/02/23/chaining-school-doors-a-fairly-common-fire-hazard-state-officials-say/ https://www.dallasnews.com/news/education/2010/02/23/chainin...
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
ratww 7y ago
I really didn't, as I was a minor. And the fact I survived while they might not has nothing to do with the things I quoted.

You really don’t have an option to leave without being disciplined. Both systems are using similar tactics to create obedient factory workers; which is exactly the point. The work camp will use just more of that.

input_sh 7y ago
It is an option, chosen by the parents. They weren't forced to attend that school based on their ethnicity.
- seanmcdirmid 7y ago
  For a kid, their parents are often unaware or unsympathetic to their struggles. And just to be clear, the same tactics are applied to Han Chinese (well, the high schools are more harsh, but the Chinese work camp model was already well developed before they decided to do this en masse in Xinjiang). It is horrible, don’t get me wrong, I’m not going to defend it, but I also hope it instills a bit more awareness in our own shortcomings (as well as that of China in general).
  - bogwog 7y ago
    > For a kid, their parents are often unaware or unsympathetic to their struggles So you're just going to generalize on all parents like that? Believe it or not, there are actually some parents out there who are interested in their child's well-being and involved in their life. > I’m not going to defend it It seems to me like you're grasping at straws to do precisely that.
    - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
      “Often” is not a generalization, only an existential of some significant commonality. Having spent 10 years in China and having actually visited Xinjiang before, I can assure you I’m not grasping at any straws.
atomicity 7y ago
I like how mentioned this fact. K12 education, church, prison, and re-education through labor are all systems that hold certain people 'captive'. I've always felt arguments like "the parents can choose not to send their kid to their" or "the captor's intention was good" to be insufficient. No matter how that changes, the information/data flows from the captors to the 'captive' person's mind does not change much. At the same time, it might not be possible to eliminate 'captive' information systems, especially if we loosen the definition of 'captive'. For example, you can pretty much only consume news in the language you know so you are held captive. However if you consume only English news, then you're worldview will be biased. English news only covers the more sensational international stories and journalists, who mostly have good intentions, are biased as well. I ended up rambling a bit, but the main point is that axiomatic arguments don't solve the problem and the lines between good/bad are too 'fuzzy'. Practical solutions around info/data flow and a good understanding of how it makes the lives of 'captives' and others in the world might have more potential [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re-education_through_labor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re-education_through_labor
- seanmcdirmid 7y ago
  Boot camp would be another example, when they want to rebuild recruits as soldiers. There is actually a fine line between acceptable and unacceptable brain washing techniques, I’m not sure what it is.
0xcde4c3db 7y ago
Also, it's a known (but apparently not widely discussed) "security measure" for schools to chain exits shut, in blatant violation of fire code requirements [1] [2]. [1] http://old.seattletimes.com/html/opinion/2002050731_startz01.html http://old.seattletimes.com/html/opinion/2002050731_startz01... [2] https://www.dallasnews.com/news/education/2010/02/23/chaining-school-doors-a-fairly-common-fire-hazard-state-officials-say/ https://www.dallasnews.com/news/education/2010/02/23/chainin...

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

ratww 7y ago

I really didn't, as I was a minor. And the fact I survived while they might not has nothing to do with the things I quoted.