6 ms·

> The students should have a fixed bed position, fixed queue position, fixed classroom seat, and fixed station during skills work, and it is strictly forbidden

by ratww 7y ago

> The students should have a fixed bed position, fixed queue position, fixed classroom seat, and fixed station during skills work, and it is strictly forbidden for this to be changed My school was like that when I was growing up. I'm not justifying what China is doing, and I didn't like it myself. But I find it weird to find it quoted here like that.

iscrewyou 7y ago
But the reality is this: you had the option to leave, they don’t. You survived, they probably won’t.
- seanmcdirmid 7y ago
  You really don’t have an option to leave without being disciplined. Both systems are using similar tactics to create obedient factory workers; which is exactly the point. The work camp will use just more of that.
  - input_sh 7y ago
    It is an option, chosen by the parents. They weren't forced to attend that school based on their ethnicity.
    - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
      For a kid, their parents are often unaware or unsympathetic to their struggles. And just to be clear, the same tactics are applied to Han Chinese (well, the high schools are more harsh, but the Chinese work camp model was already well developed before they decided to do this en masse in Xinjiang). It is horrible, don’t get me wrong, I’m not going to defend it, but I also hope it instills a bit more awareness in our own shortcomings (as well as that of China in general).
      - bogwog 7y ago
        > For a kid, their parents are often unaware or unsympathetic to their struggles So you're just going to generalize on all parents like that? Believe it or not, there are actually some parents out there who are interested in their child's well-being and involved in their life. > I’m not going to defend it It seems to me like you're grasping at straws to do precisely that.
        seanmcdirmid 7y ago
        “Often” is not a generalization, only an existential of some significant commonality. Having spent 10 years in China and having actually visited Xinjiang before, I can assure you I’m not grasping at any straws.
  - atomicity 7y ago
    I like how mentioned this fact. K12 education, church, prison, and re-education through labor are all systems that hold certain people 'captive'. I've always felt arguments like "the parents can choose not to send their kid to their" or "the captor's intention was good" to be insufficient. No matter how that changes, the information/data flows from the captors to the 'captive' person's mind does not change much. At the same time, it might not be possible to eliminate 'captive' information systems, especially if we loosen the definition of 'captive'. For example, you can pretty much only consume news in the language you know so you are held captive. However if you consume only English news, then you're worldview will be biased. English news only covers the more sensational international stories and journalists, who mostly have good intentions, are biased as well. I ended up rambling a bit, but the main point is that axiomatic arguments don't solve the problem and the lines between good/bad are too 'fuzzy'. Practical solutions around info/data flow and a good understanding of how it makes the lives of 'captives' and others in the world might have more potential [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re-education_through_labor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re-education_through_labor
    - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
      Boot camp would be another example, when they want to rebuild recruits as soldiers. There is actually a fine line between acceptable and unacceptable brain washing techniques, I’m not sure what it is.
  - 0xcde4c3db 7y ago
    Also, it's a known (but apparently not widely discussed) "security measure" for schools to chain exits shut, in blatant violation of fire code requirements [1] [2]. [1] http://old.seattletimes.com/html/opinion/2002050731_startz01.html http://old.seattletimes.com/html/opinion/2002050731_startz01... [2] https://www.dallasnews.com/news/education/2010/02/23/chaining-school-doors-a-fairly-common-fire-hazard-state-officials-say/ https://www.dallasnews.com/news/education/2010/02/23/chainin...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- ratww 7y ago
  I really didn't, as I was a minor. And the fact I survived while they might not has nothing to do with the things I quoted.
reaperducer 7y ago
But you chose to only select a portion of the text. The second sentence is useful, too: "Implement behavioural norms and discipline requirements for getting up, roll call, washing, going to the toilet, organising and housekeeping, eating, studying, sleeping, closing the door and so forth" My school was like that when I was growing up. Your school proscribed when you go to the toilet and how to close a door?
- ioror93jf 7y ago
  Mine did, yes. Grew up in rural Midwest US in the 80s. We walked in lines on a schedule for bio breaks. We had to “shut a door respectfully” basically library rules for the sake of others. Our school had 25-30 kids per class. How else does one manage that? If you really needed to go you could and this article does not say that’s explicitly disallowed. I think you’re losing the forest for a tree here. The problem is the whole kidnapping & cultural cleansing.
  - dang 7y ago
    Could you please stop creating accounts for every few comments you post? We ban accounts that do that. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. HN is a community. Users needn't use their real name, but do need some identity for others to relate to. Otherwise we may as well have no usernames and no community, and that would be a different kind of forum. https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix&page=0&query=by:dang%20community%20identity https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
    - ioror93jf 7y ago
      Stop shadow banning them and I’ll stop creating them. I keep noticing from other browsers that comments never show up so I start over. Also apparently my home IP is on some list and so I hop on LTE. Your own enforcement efforts seem to at least partly responsible for pushing me into this behavior.
whatshisface 7y ago
The difference is that you got to go home every day. Take a look at the full leaked document for details, the BBC quotes make it sound like a smaller deal than it really is.
- ratww 7y ago
  I think you're reading too much into my commentary. I'm not talking about China or comparing myself to them. There are much bigger issues than what was quoted. But I just find it funny that someone would say "Is it even possible to not be broken by something like this?" about something that happened to me, in a western school.
  - whatshisface 7y ago
    I guess it's an interesting question to wonder how broken elementary students are ending up. We wouldn't probably notice anything wrong because everyone would be broken.
- chalupaman 7y ago
  My schooling was very similar and I didn’t get to go home. Australian private boarding school. Toilet time was scheduled, you had your designated bed, designated desk, designated table at mealtimes. Timetables handed out at the beginning of each fortnight telling you which building to be in at which time. Alarm for waking up, showering, chapel service, national anthem, first session, cleaning duty, etc same time each day. Didn’t leave the school grounds for two years.
christophilus 7y ago
You weren’t tortured for trying to sleep on your left side. Nor we’re you forcefully sterilized. Nor were your organs ever in danger of being harvested. Nor did you have cameras on you when you were peeing. Nor was there a giant crematorium right next to your school for disposing of students. There’s a lot of whataboutism in the comments here, but it doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t be really concerned about what’s happening in China. Regarding the shade thrown on the US in the comments here, the US has and will continue to have some crummy practices, especially on the fringes. We also have the right to discuss, protest, and totally change our elected officials. Our flaws, current and past, should not be used as a means of silencing voices that are expressing legitimate outrage.
- rasz 7y ago
  https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/feb/20/florida-boy-arrested-refused-pledge-of-allegiance-school https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/feb/20/florida-boy-... https://www.thedailybeast.com/holocaust-survivor-yes-the-border-detention-centers-are-like-concentration-camps https://www.thedailybeast.com/holocaust-survivor-yes-the-bor... > Nor we’re you forcefully sterilized. https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9keaev/indigenous-women-in-canada-are-still-being-sterilized-without-their-consent https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9keaev/indigenous-women-i...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
mrtweetyhack 7y ago
You have a choice to go to school, these people don't have a choice. stupid.
woodandsteel 7y ago
But the purpose of your school was education in standard subjects, not ideological transformation. Your teachers did not assume the students were all followers of a dangerous radical ideology.

by ratww 7y ago

iscrewyou 7y ago

But the reality is this: you had the option to leave, they don’t. You survived, they probably won’t.

seanmcdirmid 7y ago
You really don’t have an option to leave without being disciplined. Both systems are using similar tactics to create obedient factory workers; which is exactly the point. The work camp will use just more of that.
- input_sh 7y ago
  It is an option, chosen by the parents. They weren't forced to attend that school based on their ethnicity.
  - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
    For a kid, their parents are often unaware or unsympathetic to their struggles. And just to be clear, the same tactics are applied to Han Chinese (well, the high schools are more harsh, but the Chinese work camp model was already well developed before they decided to do this en masse in Xinjiang). It is horrible, don’t get me wrong, I’m not going to defend it, but I also hope it instills a bit more awareness in our own shortcomings (as well as that of China in general).
    - bogwog 7y ago
      > For a kid, their parents are often unaware or unsympathetic to their struggles So you're just going to generalize on all parents like that? Believe it or not, there are actually some parents out there who are interested in their child's well-being and involved in their life. > I’m not going to defend it It seems to me like you're grasping at straws to do precisely that.
      - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
        “Often” is not a generalization, only an existential of some significant commonality. Having spent 10 years in China and having actually visited Xinjiang before, I can assure you I’m not grasping at any straws.
- atomicity 7y ago
  I like how mentioned this fact. K12 education, church, prison, and re-education through labor are all systems that hold certain people 'captive'. I've always felt arguments like "the parents can choose not to send their kid to their" or "the captor's intention was good" to be insufficient. No matter how that changes, the information/data flows from the captors to the 'captive' person's mind does not change much. At the same time, it might not be possible to eliminate 'captive' information systems, especially if we loosen the definition of 'captive'. For example, you can pretty much only consume news in the language you know so you are held captive. However if you consume only English news, then you're worldview will be biased. English news only covers the more sensational international stories and journalists, who mostly have good intentions, are biased as well. I ended up rambling a bit, but the main point is that axiomatic arguments don't solve the problem and the lines between good/bad are too 'fuzzy'. Practical solutions around info/data flow and a good understanding of how it makes the lives of 'captives' and others in the world might have more potential [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re-education_through_labor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re-education_through_labor
  - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
    Boot camp would be another example, when they want to rebuild recruits as soldiers. There is actually a fine line between acceptable and unacceptable brain washing techniques, I’m not sure what it is.
- 0xcde4c3db 7y ago
  Also, it's a known (but apparently not widely discussed) "security measure" for schools to chain exits shut, in blatant violation of fire code requirements [1] [2]. [1] http://old.seattletimes.com/html/opinion/2002050731_startz01.html http://old.seattletimes.com/html/opinion/2002050731_startz01... [2] https://www.dallasnews.com/news/education/2010/02/23/chaining-school-doors-a-fairly-common-fire-hazard-state-officials-say/ https://www.dallasnews.com/news/education/2010/02/23/chainin...
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
ratww 7y ago
I really didn't, as I was a minor. And the fact I survived while they might not has nothing to do with the things I quoted.

reaperducer 7y ago

But you chose to only select a portion of the text. The second sentence is useful, too: "Implement behavioural norms and discipline requirements for getting up, roll call, washing, going to the toilet, organising and housekeeping, eating, studying, sleeping, closing the door and so forth" My school was like that when I was growing up. Your school proscribed when you go to the toilet and how to close a door?

ioror93jf 7y ago
Mine did, yes. Grew up in rural Midwest US in the 80s. We walked in lines on a schedule for bio breaks. We had to “shut a door respectfully” basically library rules for the sake of others. Our school had 25-30 kids per class. How else does one manage that? If you really needed to go you could and this article does not say that’s explicitly disallowed. I think you’re losing the forest for a tree here. The problem is the whole kidnapping & cultural cleansing.
- dang 7y ago
  Could you please stop creating accounts for every few comments you post? We ban accounts that do that. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. HN is a community. Users needn't use their real name, but do need some identity for others to relate to. Otherwise we may as well have no usernames and no community, and that would be a different kind of forum. https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix&page=0&query=by:dang%20community%20identity https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
  - ioror93jf 7y ago
    Stop shadow banning them and I’ll stop creating them. I keep noticing from other browsers that comments never show up so I start over. Also apparently my home IP is on some list and so I hop on LTE. Your own enforcement efforts seem to at least partly responsible for pushing me into this behavior.

whatshisface 7y ago

The difference is that you got to go home every day. Take a look at the full leaked document for details, the BBC quotes make it sound like a smaller deal than it really is.

ratww 7y ago
I think you're reading too much into my commentary. I'm not talking about China or comparing myself to them. There are much bigger issues than what was quoted. But I just find it funny that someone would say "Is it even possible to not be broken by something like this?" about something that happened to me, in a western school.
- whatshisface 7y ago
  I guess it's an interesting question to wonder how broken elementary students are ending up. We wouldn't probably notice anything wrong because everyone would be broken.
chalupaman 7y ago
My schooling was very similar and I didn’t get to go home. Australian private boarding school. Toilet time was scheduled, you had your designated bed, designated desk, designated table at mealtimes. Timetables handed out at the beginning of each fortnight telling you which building to be in at which time. Alarm for waking up, showering, chapel service, national anthem, first session, cleaning duty, etc same time each day. Didn’t leave the school grounds for two years.

christophilus 7y ago

You weren’t tortured for trying to sleep on your left side. Nor we’re you forcefully sterilized. Nor were your organs ever in danger of being harvested. Nor did you have cameras on you when you were peeing. Nor was there a giant crematorium right next to your school for disposing of students. There’s a lot of whataboutism in the comments here, but it doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t be really concerned about what’s happening in China. Regarding the shade thrown on the US in the comments here, the US has and will continue to have some crummy practices, especially on the fringes. We also have the right to discuss, protest, and totally change our elected officials. Our flaws, current and past, should not be used as a means of silencing voices that are expressing legitimate outrage.

rasz 7y ago
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/feb/20/florida-boy-arrested-refused-pledge-of-allegiance-school https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/feb/20/florida-boy-... https://www.thedailybeast.com/holocaust-survivor-yes-the-border-detention-centers-are-like-concentration-camps https://www.thedailybeast.com/holocaust-survivor-yes-the-bor... > Nor we’re you forcefully sterilized. https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9keaev/indigenous-women-in-canada-are-still-being-sterilized-without-their-consent https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9keaev/indigenous-women-i...
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

mrtweetyhack 7y ago

You have a choice to go to school, these people don't have a choice. stupid.

woodandsteel 7y ago

But the purpose of your school was education in standard subjects, not ideological transformation. Your teachers did not assume the students were all followers of a dangerous radical ideology.