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I am a mechanical engineer. Mechanical engineering jobs ask for SolidWorks/AutoCAD/CATIA/Creo/etc experience, not just computer-aided design; ANSYS/ABAQUS/NASTR

I am a mechanical engineer. Mechanical engineering jobs ask for SolidWorks/AutoCAD/CATIA/Creo/etc experience, not just computer-aided design; ANSYS/ABAQUS/NASTRAN/etc expertise, not just finite element method; Fluent/CFX/OpenFOAM/etc knowledge, not just computational fluid dynamics. With the exception of OpenFOAM, all of these software are proprietary, largely non-interoperable, and expensive—like thousands to tens of thousands of dollars for the cheapest option with basic functionality kind of expensive; like I can never imagine opening my independent consultancy business because how expensive the basic tools are kind of expensive. Outside of programming, this is the norm. The number of free and/or open-source tools available to a mechanical engineer or an electrical engineer are infinitesimally small and it is almost impossible to do a serious engineering project with only free tools. Since this is quite lucrative for the companies making those tools, I can only imagine tech companies would be more than happy to lead us to a future where software engineering is similar in this regard to other engineering disciplines. Perhaps this is what happens when a field matures, and since software is maturing, it will become more and more like this as the time goes on.

cushychicken 7y ago
>Outside of programming, this is the norm. The number of free and/or open-source tools available to a mechanical engineer or an electrical engineer are infinitesimally small and it is almost impossible to do a serious engineering project with only free tools. >Since this is quite lucrative for the companies making those tools, I can only imagine tech companies would be more than happy to lead us to a future where software engineering is similar in this regard to other engineering disciplines. Perhaps this is what happens when a field matures, and since software is maturing, it will become more and more like this as the time goes on. That's a really great insight. (Sr EE here.) I wonder sometimes about the fact that SW engineers are capable of making their own tools in a way that we are not. Do you think this helps to combat some of the super high pricing associated with their tooling? For example: it'd be pretty hard for me as an EE to say "Fuck it! I'm fucking sick of Orcad! I'll just go write my own fucking Orcad!" (OK, well, easy to say. Hard to do. I've spent plenty of days cursing Orcad, but none building a suitable replacement.)
- smnrchrds 7y ago
  > I wonder sometimes about the fact that SW engineers are capable of making their own tools in a way that we are not. Do you think this helps to combat some of the super high pricing associated with their tooling? I can only speculate, since I am not a software engineer, but I think part of maturing is things get more complex and making things more difficult and expensive. Thirty years ago, someone could say "Fuck it! I'm fucking sick of Unix! I'll just go write my own fucking operating system!" and actually do it. Today, operating systems are so complex and large that this is not feasible anymore. Maybe you can write your own AWS replacement today, but would you able to write a replacement for AWS of 2050 in 2050? It it one of those things that I would be happy to be proven wrong about, but as of now, I am not super optimistic that the current state of freedom of software engineering tools would continue indefinitely.
  - eloisant 7y ago
    I don't think it's about software getting more complex. It does become more complex, but you don't actually write more code or handle a more complex architecture, you just build it from more complex blocks. Those blocks are packaged so their own complexity is hidden from you. And you can write software on you spare time, and distribute it. Like it was done for Linux, gcc, git, and many other open source software. The other reason we have free software is because many software companies write their own tools and distribute them as Open Source because those are just tools, not what makes them money. AWS on the other hand, is not just software but it's infrastructure. It's servers that are running, maintained, etc. There are already Open Source alternatives to AWS, that you can install on your servers and maintain, but it's a very different experience from using the AWS tools on Amazon's servers.
  - cushychicken 7y ago
    >I think part of maturing is things get more complex and making things more difficult and expensive. I agree. I think this is a great, succinct description of the underlying "why". It's a moat, to use PG's term for it. I could make a better Altium. It's just that Altium has a few decades head start on me. XD
- 7y ago
swiley 7y ago
That’s something that’s really bothered me about engineers and engineering students. I feel like if you and your team think a head a little you can avoid a lot of it. Plus a lot of software is pretty similar (Autocad electrical vs Xcircuit for example.)
- benhurmarcel 7y ago
  It's not just about choosing the right tool from the beginning. The open-source options are often not adequate at all. I'm more comfortable talking about mechanical CAD, and in that space FreeCAD (while amazing for a free tool) doesn't come close to professional tools like Solidworks or Catia. Even for personal 3d printing projects it's really lacking, let alone for professional work.
  - swiley 7y ago
    I’m much more familiar with electrical stuff personally and my experience with that is that a lot of the commercial stuff is overdone without any useful thing to show for it (AutoCAD electrical vs XCircuit is my favorite example.) I use OpensCAD for drawing 3D stuff because it’s more intuitive to me and haven’t used either FreeCAD or Solidworks for more than a few minutes each. Is it basic drawing stuff that FreeCAD lacks? Or all the other extra features. My understanding (which may be wrong) is that FreeCAD just does drawing, if you want FEM then you go get some FEM software. That’s not FreeCAD being incomplete that’s good software design, kind of like the Visual studio vs vim/gcc/gdb/make/git/valgrind/cscope debate.
    - benhurmarcel 7y ago
      > Or does FreeCAD lack basic drawing features? Yes, basically. FreeCAD only does 3d modelling and 2d drawings, that's right. That's not what I "complain" about, this is normal, that's a CAD package. FEA is another software category. But it's really lacking in modelling compared to professional tools like Solidworks.
madengr 7y ago
“ I can never imagine opening my independent consultancy business because how expensive the basic tools are kind of expensive.” I’m in the same boat as an EE, however some of these tool vendors will cut you a break as a consultant. The same PCB tool I pay $10k/seat at work I bought for $5k at home.
ranit 7y ago
> I can only imagine tech companies would be more than happy to lead us to a future where software engineering is similar in this regard to other engineering disciplines. Perhaps this is what happens when a field matures, and since software is maturing, it will become more and more like this as the time goes on. Actually software engineering had been like that for years in (distant) past. Most operating systems and compilers (that mattered for businesses) cost significant amounts. Not to mention access to computers. It is said that Bill Gates' access to shared computers in his private high school [1] gave him advantage that very few people at that time could have had. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/24/bill-gates-got-what-he-needed-to-start-microsoft-in-high-school.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/24/bill-gates-got-what-he-neede...

cushychicken 7y ago

>Outside of programming, this is the norm. The number of free and/or open-source tools available to a mechanical engineer or an electrical engineer are infinitesimally small and it is almost impossible to do a serious engineering project with only free tools. >Since this is quite lucrative for the companies making those tools, I can only imagine tech companies would be more than happy to lead us to a future where software engineering is similar in this regard to other engineering disciplines. Perhaps this is what happens when a field matures, and since software is maturing, it will become more and more like this as the time goes on. That's a really great insight. (Sr EE here.) I wonder sometimes about the fact that SW engineers are capable of making their own tools in a way that we are not. Do you think this helps to combat some of the super high pricing associated with their tooling? For example: it'd be pretty hard for me as an EE to say "Fuck it! I'm fucking sick of Orcad! I'll just go write my own fucking Orcad!" (OK, well, easy to say. Hard to do. I've spent plenty of days cursing Orcad, but none building a suitable replacement.)

smnrchrds 7y ago
> I wonder sometimes about the fact that SW engineers are capable of making their own tools in a way that we are not. Do you think this helps to combat some of the super high pricing associated with their tooling? I can only speculate, since I am not a software engineer, but I think part of maturing is things get more complex and making things more difficult and expensive. Thirty years ago, someone could say "Fuck it! I'm fucking sick of Unix! I'll just go write my own fucking operating system!" and actually do it. Today, operating systems are so complex and large that this is not feasible anymore. Maybe you can write your own AWS replacement today, but would you able to write a replacement for AWS of 2050 in 2050? It it one of those things that I would be happy to be proven wrong about, but as of now, I am not super optimistic that the current state of freedom of software engineering tools would continue indefinitely.
- eloisant 7y ago
  I don't think it's about software getting more complex. It does become more complex, but you don't actually write more code or handle a more complex architecture, you just build it from more complex blocks. Those blocks are packaged so their own complexity is hidden from you. And you can write software on you spare time, and distribute it. Like it was done for Linux, gcc, git, and many other open source software. The other reason we have free software is because many software companies write their own tools and distribute them as Open Source because those are just tools, not what makes them money. AWS on the other hand, is not just software but it's infrastructure. It's servers that are running, maintained, etc. There are already Open Source alternatives to AWS, that you can install on your servers and maintain, but it's a very different experience from using the AWS tools on Amazon's servers.
- cushychicken 7y ago
  >I think part of maturing is things get more complex and making things more difficult and expensive. I agree. I think this is a great, succinct description of the underlying "why". It's a moat, to use PG's term for it. I could make a better Altium. It's just that Altium has a few decades head start on me. XD
7y ago

swiley 7y ago

That’s something that’s really bothered me about engineers and engineering students. I feel like if you and your team think a head a little you can avoid a lot of it. Plus a lot of software is pretty similar (Autocad electrical vs Xcircuit for example.)

benhurmarcel 7y ago
It's not just about choosing the right tool from the beginning. The open-source options are often not adequate at all. I'm more comfortable talking about mechanical CAD, and in that space FreeCAD (while amazing for a free tool) doesn't come close to professional tools like Solidworks or Catia. Even for personal 3d printing projects it's really lacking, let alone for professional work.
- swiley 7y ago
  I’m much more familiar with electrical stuff personally and my experience with that is that a lot of the commercial stuff is overdone without any useful thing to show for it (AutoCAD electrical vs XCircuit is my favorite example.) I use OpensCAD for drawing 3D stuff because it’s more intuitive to me and haven’t used either FreeCAD or Solidworks for more than a few minutes each. Is it basic drawing stuff that FreeCAD lacks? Or all the other extra features. My understanding (which may be wrong) is that FreeCAD just does drawing, if you want FEM then you go get some FEM software. That’s not FreeCAD being incomplete that’s good software design, kind of like the Visual studio vs vim/gcc/gdb/make/git/valgrind/cscope debate.
  - benhurmarcel 7y ago
    > Or does FreeCAD lack basic drawing features? Yes, basically. FreeCAD only does 3d modelling and 2d drawings, that's right. That's not what I "complain" about, this is normal, that's a CAD package. FEA is another software category. But it's really lacking in modelling compared to professional tools like Solidworks.

madengr 7y ago

“ I can never imagine opening my independent consultancy business because how expensive the basic tools are kind of expensive.” I’m in the same boat as an EE, however some of these tool vendors will cut you a break as a consultant. The same PCB tool I pay $10k/seat at work I bought for $5k at home.

ranit 7y ago

> I can only imagine tech companies would be more than happy to lead us to a future where software engineering is similar in this regard to other engineering disciplines. Perhaps this is what happens when a field matures, and since software is maturing, it will become more and more like this as the time goes on. Actually software engineering had been like that for years in (distant) past. Most operating systems and compilers (that mattered for businesses) cost significant amounts. Not to mention access to computers. It is said that Bill Gates' access to shared computers in his private high school [1] gave him advantage that very few people at that time could have had. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/24/bill-gates-got-what-he-needed-to-start-microsoft-in-high-school.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/24/bill-gates-got-what-he-neede...