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That idealogoy never went away. It just morphed and developed. After all, nobody in their right mind thinks Stalin's USSR is a good thing to repeat. But many al

That idealogoy never went away. It just morphed and developed. After all, nobody in their right mind thinks Stalin's USSR is a good thing to repeat. But many also think we can do better than neoliberalism, and practice seems to bear that out. Look up "The people's Republic of Walmart" for a recent book on the calculation debate for example.

2stop 7y ago
I love this straw man. You know North Korea is a democratic people’s republic... we wouldn’t want to repeat that... yet democracy persists!
VvR-Ox 7y ago
Of course we can do better than neoliberalism (and this does not lead to communism or socialism automatically). In Europe they have some interesting models in between that provide social security, health care and a lot of other great things for their citizens so even the people who don't have enough money to buy / invest in such services can enjoy a good life. In the US there is people who do 3 jobs and don't have enough money to live a life I personally would consider a "good enough" one. Yes I know this also stems from my perspective and the standards I would label "poor" could be very high for an Asian child sewing clothes for us. Now neoliberalism is trending there as well and we can observe how it "drags them down". Look at Germany for example - I don't think it's easy living there when you knew the 70ies and still be optimistic about the future if you don't happen to be a millionaire. They had a good employment rate (now it's being faked as a friend told me) low poverty and a middle class with a high status of living and they were leaders in several disciplines. Now look how they lose all of that while some private companies take the money out of their public hand without even paying taxes. That's what neoliberalism brought them and I bet some of these Germans are very angry about it. I can understand them because who want's to lose the prospects of a good life? In '94 for example they sold out their train infrastructure and now look at the development: ~16% of tracks where given up because it was not profitable for them. Now they would love to have it back because of the climate change etc. There is a lot of examples and I could go on like this all day but I just wanted to contribute some facts about the EU to this discussion because I always thought they have some different but very interesting ideas.
- daseiner1 7y ago
  Even without referring to specific alternatives, the supposition in the parent comment that Communism is bad, therefore how can Neoliberalism have room for improvement? as if the current world order were some sort of End of History is laughable
- black_puppydog 7y ago
  Thanks for engaging in a civil manner. :) Doesn't seem to be a given in this thread, reading some of the other comments. You're actually speaking to a German living in France right here. And yes, I'd largely share your analysis. People are angry, and for good reason. To add insult to injury, many of these changes were made by the social democrats, which really cemented the idea in people's head that none of the mainstream parties see an alternative. "Alternativlos" (Merkel's german equivalent of Thatcher's "There is no alternative") is the mantra that has prevented any real changes from being made. The Market is seen as the beginning and end of all discussion, and if it has inherent flaws, well, you can curse them, but you cannot argue against it. It's like the weather. There are similar examples in other countries of course. Personally I'm seeing this here in Grenoble. France has a reputation for an overpaid and "too comfortable" public sector, but that has only really become a problem since the government has decided to drastically reduce spending. I live in Grenoble (a ~400K metropolitan area, so a small town for french standards) and the federal government has unilaterally decided to reduce the city's budget by ~30% over the last 3-4 years. The effects are things like public baths closing or reducing service (disproportionally affecting poorer people) and even blatant violations of unalienable rights of the poorest of poor. This is not a metaphor or something: there is no more money to provide emergency shelter to asylum seekers, which is, by law, guaranteed to everyone in any situation of need, no questions asked. Now they live in tents next to the train station. It's shameful. On a less personal note: the NHS in the UK seems to be a good natural experiment. It is described in some detail in the book I mentioned in the GP. Since Scotland and other regions had some leeway in how to run their NHS, they didn't follow along with all the neoliberal policies of the 90s. The result is that the English NHS has longer waiting times, worse health outcomes, and a drastically increased administrational overhead (went from ~5% to ~14%!) while the Scottish NHS fares better in all of these aspects. This all happens within a European framework of course. I like the idea of open borders and shared prosperity, I have personally been very lucky to profit from these (via Erasmus and the possibility to "just move to another country" twice) but the entire idea of the European Union, as I have come to realize over the last years, is not to unify people and build bridges across borders. The idea of the EU is to open markets, and let The Market figure out the "shared prosperity". It is a fundamentally neoliberal institution. And that is not even talking about many of its practical (transparency/electoral/etc) flaws. For any practical changes that affect the individual (roaming/open borders/shared currency) the liberalization for companies vastly outsizes that given to the individual. And then there are tons of examples where EU border-opening does nothing for the individual, and only liberalizes the markets to allow corporations more freedoms. An example is the liberalization of the railroad systems. After harmonizing the technical level, the EU liberalized access of e.g. companies to operate on other nations' railroad networks. But despite knowing that there is not enough market incentive for The Market to offer decent cross border offers, the EU governments declined to force their (largely politically controlled) railroad companies to do so. For the individual, crossing borders for vacation/work has become easier (because of the shared currency) but e.g. commuting across borders by train remains a financial and practical nightmare. Direct social/economic interaction would really have the potential to fuse European citizens into a real union, but that was never the idea. So yeah, you're right, the EU and its nations had (and to a degree still have) some interesting middle ground ideas. And you're also right that they are being eroded away by a neoliberal project. We can see the effects in near realtime, and it's not heading in a good direction... edited to add example.
hootbootscoot 7y ago
stalin was a right wing monarch. tell me, what part of "we elites eat caviar while the poor starve" is remotely communist? common, commune. community. communion. the native-english-speaking-world could do with a bit less sanctimony and a bit more etymology.
- TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
  I'm not sure why you're being downvoted, because the reality is that the so-called left-wing dictatorships were literally nationalistic empires with a strong monarchic slant. Just as Nazi Germany was. (If Hitler had won WWII, Germany would have become an imperial monarchy within a couple of generations at most.) And North Korea still is. The pseudo-Marxist imagery is just a wrapping. Politically, North Korea is a semi-industrialised feudal monarchy. Just as the USSR was an industrialised nationalistic proto-monarchy controlled by an emperor. If you want millions of deaths, promote nationalism and imperialism. They always deliver.
  - mopsi 7y ago
    > I'm not sure why you're being downvoted Because it's wishful thinking. Frantic anti-nationalism in both words and actions was a cornerstone of life in the USSR, from Stalin's deportation of millions of "unreliable nationalities" to Brezhnev-era "friendship of peoples". A "new Soviet man" (superhuman) was expected to emerge from that, with no nationality, no religion, no traditions, completely selfless, loyal only to the communist party, and devoted to work. This is as far from nationalism as one can get in practical terms. This was not only ideological matter, but nationalism presented a fundamental threat to the Soviet Union, it enabled people in the USSR to self-organize and eventually break free. Nationalist movements that rallied people for self-government and democratic freedoms were a key factor in the collapse of the USSR.
  - mcguire 7y ago
    Left wing totalitarianism is hard to distinguish from right wing totalitarianism.
    - 7y ago
dang 7y ago
Please don't take HN on generic ideological tangents. It's against the site guidelines because such discussions are always predictable and usually turn nasty. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20generic%20ideolog&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21619122 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21619122 and marked it off-topic.

2stop 7y ago

I love this straw man. You know North Korea is a democratic people’s republic... we wouldn’t want to repeat that... yet democracy persists!

VvR-Ox 7y ago

Of course we can do better than neoliberalism (and this does not lead to communism or socialism automatically). In Europe they have some interesting models in between that provide social security, health care and a lot of other great things for their citizens so even the people who don't have enough money to buy / invest in such services can enjoy a good life. In the US there is people who do 3 jobs and don't have enough money to live a life I personally would consider a "good enough" one. Yes I know this also stems from my perspective and the standards I would label "poor" could be very high for an Asian child sewing clothes for us. Now neoliberalism is trending there as well and we can observe how it "drags them down". Look at Germany for example - I don't think it's easy living there when you knew the 70ies and still be optimistic about the future if you don't happen to be a millionaire. They had a good employment rate (now it's being faked as a friend told me) low poverty and a middle class with a high status of living and they were leaders in several disciplines. Now look how they lose all of that while some private companies take the money out of their public hand without even paying taxes. That's what neoliberalism brought them and I bet some of these Germans are very angry about it. I can understand them because who want's to lose the prospects of a good life? In '94 for example they sold out their train infrastructure and now look at the development: ~16% of tracks where given up because it was not profitable for them. Now they would love to have it back because of the climate change etc. There is a lot of examples and I could go on like this all day but I just wanted to contribute some facts about the EU to this discussion because I always thought they have some different but very interesting ideas.

daseiner1 7y ago
Even without referring to specific alternatives, the supposition in the parent comment that Communism is bad, therefore how can Neoliberalism have room for improvement? as if the current world order were some sort of End of History is laughable
black_puppydog 7y ago
Thanks for engaging in a civil manner. :) Doesn't seem to be a given in this thread, reading some of the other comments. You're actually speaking to a German living in France right here. And yes, I'd largely share your analysis. People are angry, and for good reason. To add insult to injury, many of these changes were made by the social democrats, which really cemented the idea in people's head that none of the mainstream parties see an alternative. "Alternativlos" (Merkel's german equivalent of Thatcher's "There is no alternative") is the mantra that has prevented any real changes from being made. The Market is seen as the beginning and end of all discussion, and if it has inherent flaws, well, you can curse them, but you cannot argue against it. It's like the weather. There are similar examples in other countries of course. Personally I'm seeing this here in Grenoble. France has a reputation for an overpaid and "too comfortable" public sector, but that has only really become a problem since the government has decided to drastically reduce spending. I live in Grenoble (a ~400K metropolitan area, so a small town for french standards) and the federal government has unilaterally decided to reduce the city's budget by ~30% over the last 3-4 years. The effects are things like public baths closing or reducing service (disproportionally affecting poorer people) and even blatant violations of unalienable rights of the poorest of poor. This is not a metaphor or something: there is no more money to provide emergency shelter to asylum seekers, which is, by law, guaranteed to everyone in any situation of need, no questions asked. Now they live in tents next to the train station. It's shameful. On a less personal note: the NHS in the UK seems to be a good natural experiment. It is described in some detail in the book I mentioned in the GP. Since Scotland and other regions had some leeway in how to run their NHS, they didn't follow along with all the neoliberal policies of the 90s. The result is that the English NHS has longer waiting times, worse health outcomes, and a drastically increased administrational overhead (went from ~5% to ~14%!) while the Scottish NHS fares better in all of these aspects. This all happens within a European framework of course. I like the idea of open borders and shared prosperity, I have personally been very lucky to profit from these (via Erasmus and the possibility to "just move to another country" twice) but the entire idea of the European Union, as I have come to realize over the last years, is not to unify people and build bridges across borders. The idea of the EU is to open markets, and let The Market figure out the "shared prosperity". It is a fundamentally neoliberal institution. And that is not even talking about many of its practical (transparency/electoral/etc) flaws. For any practical changes that affect the individual (roaming/open borders/shared currency) the liberalization for companies vastly outsizes that given to the individual. And then there are tons of examples where EU border-opening does nothing for the individual, and only liberalizes the markets to allow corporations more freedoms. An example is the liberalization of the railroad systems. After harmonizing the technical level, the EU liberalized access of e.g. companies to operate on other nations' railroad networks. But despite knowing that there is not enough market incentive for The Market to offer decent cross border offers, the EU governments declined to force their (largely politically controlled) railroad companies to do so. For the individual, crossing borders for vacation/work has become easier (because of the shared currency) but e.g. commuting across borders by train remains a financial and practical nightmare. Direct social/economic interaction would really have the potential to fuse European citizens into a real union, but that was never the idea. So yeah, you're right, the EU and its nations had (and to a degree still have) some interesting middle ground ideas. And you're also right that they are being eroded away by a neoliberal project. We can see the effects in near realtime, and it's not heading in a good direction... edited to add example.

hootbootscoot 7y ago

stalin was a right wing monarch. tell me, what part of "we elites eat caviar while the poor starve" is remotely communist? common, commune. community. communion. the native-english-speaking-world could do with a bit less sanctimony and a bit more etymology.

TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
I'm not sure why you're being downvoted, because the reality is that the so-called left-wing dictatorships were literally nationalistic empires with a strong monarchic slant. Just as Nazi Germany was. (If Hitler had won WWII, Germany would have become an imperial monarchy within a couple of generations at most.) And North Korea still is. The pseudo-Marxist imagery is just a wrapping. Politically, North Korea is a semi-industrialised feudal monarchy. Just as the USSR was an industrialised nationalistic proto-monarchy controlled by an emperor. If you want millions of deaths, promote nationalism and imperialism. They always deliver.
- mopsi 7y ago
  > I'm not sure why you're being downvoted Because it's wishful thinking. Frantic anti-nationalism in both words and actions was a cornerstone of life in the USSR, from Stalin's deportation of millions of "unreliable nationalities" to Brezhnev-era "friendship of peoples". A "new Soviet man" (superhuman) was expected to emerge from that, with no nationality, no religion, no traditions, completely selfless, loyal only to the communist party, and devoted to work. This is as far from nationalism as one can get in practical terms. This was not only ideological matter, but nationalism presented a fundamental threat to the Soviet Union, it enabled people in the USSR to self-organize and eventually break free. Nationalist movements that rallied people for self-government and democratic freedoms were a key factor in the collapse of the USSR.
- mcguire 7y ago
  Left wing totalitarianism is hard to distinguish from right wing totalitarianism.
  - 7y ago

dang 7y ago

Please don't take HN on generic ideological tangents. It's against the site guidelines because such discussions are always predictable and usually turn nasty. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20generic%20ideolog&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21619122 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21619122 and marked it off-topic.