5 ms·

I think you are going in the right direction. Society needs to recognize that suicide must be some evolutionarily advantageous adaptation. Many people when pres

I think you are going in the right direction. Society needs to recognize that suicide must be some evolutionarily advantageous adaptation. Many people when pressed will say they think an individual has value, but that individual often sees no actions come from that sentiment. And if someone thinks they provide no value and are not wanted, it seems logical to unburden everyone else. It would be similar to how cats go off alone to die when they are sick.

marmadukester39 7y ago
Except that suicide burdens everyone around a person terribly.
- clarry 7y ago
  And that is a major issue for many younger people who contemplate suicide. I think it's more that they want to unburden themselves, but knowing that doing so will burden their close ones is what keeps them from doing it. Quite nightmarish, if you think about it.
  - ARandomerDude 7y ago
    > Quite nightmarish, if you think about it. Your comment assumes a positive change is impossible. I almost killed myself when I was in high school but decided not to because I didn't want to hurt my family. That bought me enough time to get things straightened out and now I am very thankful to be here.
    - clarry 7y ago
      It is a nightmare if positive change does not come about. You're stuck in pain for as long as you refuse to bring others pain.
- snagglegaggle 7y ago
  For a while, yes, but then they get over it. If the person would continue to be nonproductive (or in the situation being discussed -- feel they are being nonproductive) for years then there is a clear benefit to their death. Does suicide have place in a modern society? Probably not, but at the same time the fact people continue to kill themselves show that people really don't care about the issue. Actions speak louder than words.
- ghemsley 7y ago
  My guess is that the burden must be worse for the person who commmits suicide. Or they wouldn't bother, would they? And similarly, if the burden is so great for those around them, why don't they kill themselves too? It comes down to the fact that most people don't want to acknowledge their incredible privilege in being relatively unburdened by depression, I think. I happen to know attempting suicide can be quite severely painful. Most people who try do not risk it lightly. And much of the time, in my experience, it's those "people around you" who are to blame for the person wanting to die in the first place. If we're being honest, most of us don't truly do everything we reasonably can to help those with aspirations towards suicide. Many people act as some of those in this comment section are, telling people they're being selfish and weak. How the fuck on Earth does that help matters? And before you assume I only care about myself or something, my best friend just killed himself a few months ago and I cried nonstop for days. I still support his right to do what he did. It becomes blindingly obvious to me when a person has no idea what it's like living with chronic treatment resistant depression as soon as they open their mouths. It's just ignorance and priviliege and a total misunderstanding of the problem to blame someone who is suicidal for wanting to end their own suffering.
sonofhans 7y ago
I do not believe there's evidence or reason to say that suicidal tendencies convey evolutionary advantage to the species. Many things seem to be accidents. Does the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photic_sneeze_reflex https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photic_sneeze_reflex convey advantage? Very likely no; it's an accidental mutation that doesn't cause enough damage to be selected against. Evolution isn't directed, and there is no end state. Attributing positive effect to every mutation verges on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleology.
- snagglegaggle 7y ago
  What would convince you? It should be pretty clear at this juncture I don't have evidence. However I did give a reason; if in general depressed people feel they are not contributing or participating in society then that is pretty clear. You can look into this further: a lack of physical activity tends to worsen depression, and a hunter-gatherer with reduced mobility and/or other issues that make it hard to interact with the group is most certainly a resource drain. It goes on and on. Evolution isn't directed but structures and instinct that are truly against the organisms interest are the exception, not the norm.
brazzy 7y ago
> Society needs to recognize that suicide must be some evolutionarily advantageous adaptation. Bollocks. There is very close to zero evolutionary pressure against (and, of course, even less than that for) having a small percentage of individual of a species decide to off themselves. Especially when it's older males (the most likely age group to commit suicide).
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  Surely if a tribe can reduce the feeding burden it improves its fitness, to the benefit of all members. If a tribe can do that, and increase calorie intake simultaneously then there's a double benefit. Older males [who can't hunt or defend and after trained in anything else] who would end their own lives would improve the survival chances of their own offspring, it seems?
- benibela 7y ago
  It might be a epidemic prevention, similar to apoptosis. Better the sick person dies voluntarily than infecting everyone else with a deadly disease
jpindar 7y ago
People may say "everyone is valuable" but will they support UBI? Oh, so not THAT valuable.

marmadukester39 7y ago

Except that suicide burdens everyone around a person terribly.

clarry 7y ago
And that is a major issue for many younger people who contemplate suicide. I think it's more that they want to unburden themselves, but knowing that doing so will burden their close ones is what keeps them from doing it. Quite nightmarish, if you think about it.
- ARandomerDude 7y ago
  > Quite nightmarish, if you think about it. Your comment assumes a positive change is impossible. I almost killed myself when I was in high school but decided not to because I didn't want to hurt my family. That bought me enough time to get things straightened out and now I am very thankful to be here.
  - clarry 7y ago
    It is a nightmare if positive change does not come about. You're stuck in pain for as long as you refuse to bring others pain.
snagglegaggle 7y ago
For a while, yes, but then they get over it. If the person would continue to be nonproductive (or in the situation being discussed -- feel they are being nonproductive) for years then there is a clear benefit to their death. Does suicide have place in a modern society? Probably not, but at the same time the fact people continue to kill themselves show that people really don't care about the issue. Actions speak louder than words.
ghemsley 7y ago
My guess is that the burden must be worse for the person who commmits suicide. Or they wouldn't bother, would they? And similarly, if the burden is so great for those around them, why don't they kill themselves too? It comes down to the fact that most people don't want to acknowledge their incredible privilege in being relatively unburdened by depression, I think. I happen to know attempting suicide can be quite severely painful. Most people who try do not risk it lightly. And much of the time, in my experience, it's those "people around you" who are to blame for the person wanting to die in the first place. If we're being honest, most of us don't truly do everything we reasonably can to help those with aspirations towards suicide. Many people act as some of those in this comment section are, telling people they're being selfish and weak. How the fuck on Earth does that help matters? And before you assume I only care about myself or something, my best friend just killed himself a few months ago and I cried nonstop for days. I still support his right to do what he did. It becomes blindingly obvious to me when a person has no idea what it's like living with chronic treatment resistant depression as soon as they open their mouths. It's just ignorance and priviliege and a total misunderstanding of the problem to blame someone who is suicidal for wanting to end their own suffering.

sonofhans 7y ago

I do not believe there's evidence or reason to say that suicidal tendencies convey evolutionary advantage to the species. Many things seem to be accidents. Does the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photic_sneeze_reflex https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photic_sneeze_reflex convey advantage? Very likely no; it's an accidental mutation that doesn't cause enough damage to be selected against. Evolution isn't directed, and there is no end state. Attributing positive effect to every mutation verges on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleology.

snagglegaggle 7y ago
What would convince you? It should be pretty clear at this juncture I don't have evidence. However I did give a reason; if in general depressed people feel they are not contributing or participating in society then that is pretty clear. You can look into this further: a lack of physical activity tends to worsen depression, and a hunter-gatherer with reduced mobility and/or other issues that make it hard to interact with the group is most certainly a resource drain. It goes on and on. Evolution isn't directed but structures and instinct that are truly against the organisms interest are the exception, not the norm.

brazzy 7y ago

> Society needs to recognize that suicide must be some evolutionarily advantageous adaptation. Bollocks. There is very close to zero evolutionary pressure against (and, of course, even less than that for) having a small percentage of individual of a species decide to off themselves. Especially when it's older males (the most likely age group to commit suicide).

pbhjpbhj 7y ago
Surely if a tribe can reduce the feeding burden it improves its fitness, to the benefit of all members. If a tribe can do that, and increase calorie intake simultaneously then there's a double benefit. Older males [who can't hunt or defend and after trained in anything else] who would end their own lives would improve the survival chances of their own offspring, it seems?
benibela 7y ago
It might be a epidemic prevention, similar to apoptosis. Better the sick person dies voluntarily than infecting everyone else with a deadly disease

jpindar 7y ago

People may say "everyone is valuable" but will they support UBI? Oh, so not THAT valuable.