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It is not only about the Taiwanese flag mentioned in the article but the removal of the Hong Kong protesting app. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21210678

It is not only about the Taiwanese flag mentioned in the article but the removal of the Hong Kong protesting app. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21210678 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21210678 So Cook means that Apple did self-censorship in favor of China at their willing? That sounds even worse.

eirini1 7y ago
Sounds like a company tailoring its products to its market. This has happened forever, its just that the U.S market is no longer the biggest or most important one.
- humanrebar 7y ago
  The Chinese government is not actually a market. It is a regulator and possibly a customer.
  - imglorp 7y ago
    Or, another possibility, even someone who can do favors. It's said Pablo Escobar didn't need to arrange those escapes from prison: he didn't have to ask. It was done for him because he would be grateful to his benefactors.
    - humanrebar 7y ago
      I was making a comment that "market" is a plural word. If it's a single entity involved, it is not a market. Even a discrete or organized set of entities is not a market. Accomadating, implicitly or explicitly, the Chinese government is not respecting or listening to a market because the Chinese government is not a market. This is a different kind of relationship to "people who buy iPhones" or "Canadians".
- lettergram 7y ago
  The US market is still 3-4x China in terms of market size: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_consumer_markets https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_consumer_mar...
  - y4mi 7y ago
    Not if you're thinking of growth. They already'captured' so much of the us market that catering to it has sever denimishing returns. Most people already in the ecosystem will keep buying it no matter what Apple does. I'm China, they stand to gain a lot of new customers by catering to their wishes (or more specifically the wishes of their government)
    - lettergram 7y ago
      I mean, it’s still the 2nd largest market. I wasn’t trying to make any claims, just pointing out the US market is indeed the largest market by a large margin.
  - scottlocklin 7y ago
    Doesn't really matter if your entire supply chain is in China. Globalist economic ideologues forget to mention this. You stick your supply chain in a totalitarian state with artificially cheap labor costs, and you pretty much have to do as they say. Good luck sourcing chips for future military systems.
    - q3k 7y ago
      > Good luck sourcing chips for future military systems. There's still comparatively little high-tech silicon fabrication in mainland China.
    - lettergram 7y ago
      Intel has a large portion of their chip manufacturing in the US...
    - thawaway1837 7y ago
- deogeo 7y ago
  Good job framing opposition to government-corporate censorship as a symptom of US self-importance!
  - eirini1 7y ago
    but this kind of censorship has occured forever. It was just for the sake of the US, instead of China. To those outside of the US, not much has changed.
- maxerickson 7y ago
  Corporations are actually pretty fucking new in the scheme of things. We don't have to treat them as a force of nature.
  - jotm 7y ago
    They should be better regulated, but companies have been big for centuries, few come close to the power held by companies in various colonies.
    - maxerickson 7y ago
      Yes, I am not grievously historically illiterate.
    - wavefunction 7y ago
      >few come close to the power held by companies in various colonies any petty despot enjoys the same level of power
      - yourbandsucks 7y ago
        Not really. Despots usually have politics to deal with. Not everything is possible. The companies in question had a massive technological and force advantage over the local populace with free reign when it came to managing dissent with force. Their only political concerns were back in Europe.
    - Retric 7y ago
      Companies have not been big for very long. Stock only dates back 400 years, but try and find 10 giant companies with 100,000 employees from 300 years ago. It’s really better transportation and communication that’s allowed modern giants to be created. With the railroad and telegraph kicking things into high gear.
      - dleslie 7y ago
        Would even HBC and the various East India companies reach that size, at that time?
- riffraff 7y ago
  but at this point in time, companies are bending over to satisfy regulators of a part of the market affecting all the rest. In the past, you would get parts of a movie, titles, jokes or whatever censored in some part of the world, and not elsewhere. Now to avoid upsetting the CCP companies decide to not use potentially offensive content all over the world. It's terrifying.
saagarjha 7y ago
I would not be surprised if the original rejection was just a reviewer making a somewhat arbitrary decision. I think it’s nearly impossible that the second one was made without considering China.
Proven 7y ago
> So Cook means that Apple did self-censorship in favor of China at their willing? That sounds even worse. This. Effing Apple. Love their products but next time I'll at least try to reconsider.
mrobot 7y ago
Would you be upset if a US protesting app was removed? Do you think a protesting app would be allowed in the US if it was effective? (I'm genuinely asking because i don't think i have ever seen an effective protest app in the US)
- throwGuardian 7y ago
  > i don't think i have ever seen an effective protest app in the US Twitter and Facebook serve protesters very well
  - mrobot 7y ago
    It seems popular opinion on the left that social networks like these would be censored if a real revolution ever actually popped off in the US.
    - setr 7y ago
      the left would push for a censor if the right were (perceived) to be leading the revolution, and the right would do so if the left were trying. And right now, the right (accidentally?) won, so the left are naturally reacting to anything that might have lead to that victory: namely, social media.
- d0ne 7y ago
  Yes, I would be very upset. Yes, it would be allowed in the US. If it was removed for anything other normal violations of an Apps Stores TOS it would be violating several portions of the the First Amendment including freedom of speech, for the right to assemble, and the right to petition the government.[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights#First_Amendment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights#F...
  - mrobot 7y ago
    Couldn't they just change the TOS to say something like you can't use apps to evade law enforcement, which they might do under pressure from the police unions?

eirini1 7y ago

Sounds like a company tailoring its products to its market. This has happened forever, its just that the U.S market is no longer the biggest or most important one.

humanrebar 7y ago
The Chinese government is not actually a market. It is a regulator and possibly a customer.
- imglorp 7y ago
  Or, another possibility, even someone who can do favors. It's said Pablo Escobar didn't need to arrange those escapes from prison: he didn't have to ask. It was done for him because he would be grateful to his benefactors.
  - humanrebar 7y ago
    I was making a comment that "market" is a plural word. If it's a single entity involved, it is not a market. Even a discrete or organized set of entities is not a market. Accomadating, implicitly or explicitly, the Chinese government is not respecting or listening to a market because the Chinese government is not a market. This is a different kind of relationship to "people who buy iPhones" or "Canadians".
lettergram 7y ago
The US market is still 3-4x China in terms of market size: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_consumer_markets https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_consumer_mar...
- y4mi 7y ago
  Not if you're thinking of growth. They already'captured' so much of the us market that catering to it has sever denimishing returns. Most people already in the ecosystem will keep buying it no matter what Apple does. I'm China, they stand to gain a lot of new customers by catering to their wishes (or more specifically the wishes of their government)
  - lettergram 7y ago
    I mean, it’s still the 2nd largest market. I wasn’t trying to make any claims, just pointing out the US market is indeed the largest market by a large margin.
- scottlocklin 7y ago
  Doesn't really matter if your entire supply chain is in China. Globalist economic ideologues forget to mention this. You stick your supply chain in a totalitarian state with artificially cheap labor costs, and you pretty much have to do as they say. Good luck sourcing chips for future military systems.
  - q3k 7y ago
    > Good luck sourcing chips for future military systems. There's still comparatively little high-tech silicon fabrication in mainland China.
  - lettergram 7y ago
    Intel has a large portion of their chip manufacturing in the US...
  - thawaway1837 7y ago
deogeo 7y ago
Good job framing opposition to government-corporate censorship as a symptom of US self-importance!
- eirini1 7y ago
  but this kind of censorship has occured forever. It was just for the sake of the US, instead of China. To those outside of the US, not much has changed.
maxerickson 7y ago
Corporations are actually pretty fucking new in the scheme of things. We don't have to treat them as a force of nature.
- jotm 7y ago
  They should be better regulated, but companies have been big for centuries, few come close to the power held by companies in various colonies.
  - maxerickson 7y ago
    Yes, I am not grievously historically illiterate.
  - wavefunction 7y ago
    >few come close to the power held by companies in various colonies any petty despot enjoys the same level of power
    - yourbandsucks 7y ago
      Not really. Despots usually have politics to deal with. Not everything is possible. The companies in question had a massive technological and force advantage over the local populace with free reign when it came to managing dissent with force. Their only political concerns were back in Europe.
  - Retric 7y ago
    Companies have not been big for very long. Stock only dates back 400 years, but try and find 10 giant companies with 100,000 employees from 300 years ago. It’s really better transportation and communication that’s allowed modern giants to be created. With the railroad and telegraph kicking things into high gear.
    - dleslie 7y ago
      Would even HBC and the various East India companies reach that size, at that time?
riffraff 7y ago
but at this point in time, companies are bending over to satisfy regulators of a part of the market affecting all the rest. In the past, you would get parts of a movie, titles, jokes or whatever censored in some part of the world, and not elsewhere. Now to avoid upsetting the CCP companies decide to not use potentially offensive content all over the world. It's terrifying.

saagarjha 7y ago

I would not be surprised if the original rejection was just a reviewer making a somewhat arbitrary decision. I think it’s nearly impossible that the second one was made without considering China.

Proven 7y ago

> So Cook means that Apple did self-censorship in favor of China at their willing? That sounds even worse. This. Effing Apple. Love their products but next time I'll at least try to reconsider.

mrobot 7y ago

Would you be upset if a US protesting app was removed? Do you think a protesting app would be allowed in the US if it was effective? (I'm genuinely asking because i don't think i have ever seen an effective protest app in the US)

throwGuardian 7y ago
> i don't think i have ever seen an effective protest app in the US Twitter and Facebook serve protesters very well
- mrobot 7y ago
  It seems popular opinion on the left that social networks like these would be censored if a real revolution ever actually popped off in the US.
  - setr 7y ago
    the left would push for a censor if the right were (perceived) to be leading the revolution, and the right would do so if the left were trying. And right now, the right (accidentally?) won, so the left are naturally reacting to anything that might have lead to that victory: namely, social media.
d0ne 7y ago
Yes, I would be very upset. Yes, it would be allowed in the US. If it was removed for anything other normal violations of an Apps Stores TOS it would be violating several portions of the the First Amendment including freedom of speech, for the right to assemble, and the right to petition the government.[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights#First_Amendment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights#F...
- mrobot 7y ago
  Couldn't they just change the TOS to say something like you can't use apps to evade law enforcement, which they might do under pressure from the police unions?