Part 2: > That's not CPC values, that's just inevitable side affect of great power geopolitics and the natural reaction by neighbors in response should be conc

Part 2: > That's not CPC values, that's just inevitable side affect of great power geopolitics and the natural reaction by neighbors in response should be concern. I am extremely confident that Canada and Mexico have no fear of the US sending missiles to their cities, or troops into their territory. That's because we don't do things like constantly assert that their land is our land, threaten them with destruction, run propaganda campaigns to that affect, and develop weapons specifically with the goal of penetrating their defenses. > You've just listed all the goals of every great power, some manner of hegemony and political influence like that's somehow explicit to CPC. I fully admit that the US committed atrocities against Native Americans when we invaded North America. Slavery too was an abomination; Japanese internment camps were disgusting, our treatment of Chinese laborers and immigrants (as well as those from other parts of East Asia) was abhorrent, our criminal justice system is an affront to justice itself, our border control and immigration systems are deeply inhumane and unjust, etc. We would earn and deserve international condemnation if we did any of that stuff today. And we do, look at what organizations have to say about our immigration policies and our criminal justice system. I wish the West would exert more pressure on us, truly. I'm happy to talk about those issues, just not in a thread about the CCP's actions. When are you going to stop using the actions of others as justification for the CCP? And again if your argument is "well the US did it", why doesn't the CCP do the good things we do (rule of law, elections, etc.)? > Obviously the primary goal for CPC is power and self-survival... This is the definition of a corrupt regime. > hence CPC having broad domestic support How could you possibly measure that, given the CCP's surveillance state, re-education camps, vast propaganda network, and lack of any kind of free speech. > Again you have the right to call on people to antagonize CPC because you think they're the historical tier bad human rights violator "Antagonize" means "to cause someone to become hostile". By any reasonable standard, the CCP is a hostile regime. You cannot make something hostile if it already is. Do not try and imply the CCP is a peaceful, benevolent government when the facts clearly show otherwise. It's also very telling that you think my words, my political beliefs, could cause a government to become hostile. Of course, when you're dealing with a regime with no respect for human rights, that's a concern. > Relative to Chinese population, the atrocities happening in China is comparable to US prison industrial complex and wars abroad. It is not. Here are the things we do not do as a matter of policy: - Forced sterilization - Forced rape and impregnation - Organ harvesting - Interning millions of people without cause - Forcing millions of our own citizens to violate their religious beliefs and to renounce their religion > US dominated social media ceaseless spam China bad and HK protests... This is pretty funny. Have you seen all the stories about the CCP's efforts to censor anything about HK? This is the CCP's playbook, whether it's 8964, Xinjiang, Tibet, or HK. > Ultimately, my argument is you can't eat your morals. Again, this is a false choice. You absolutely do not have to choose between human rights, rule of law, and economic development. Again feel free to look at the Democracy Index for examples. > So trying to undermine China via moral arguments is fruitless, especially coming from Americans, who, having voting rights is individually culpable for US behaviours that undermines their ability to critique. I'm not saying the CCP has to listen to my government or me. They obviously won't; regimes that invest in propaganda as heavily as the CCP does aren't interested in listening. I'm not even telling them what to do. You're making excuses for their behavior, and I'm offering alternatives (invest in independent legal systems, build liberal institutions that respect human rights), but I'm not saying they should. I'm saying if they don't, that's the definition of an authoritarian regime, valuing its own power and enrichment over the well being of its people. I am imploring the West and our allies to take action though. I also think it's funny how you're trying to tie me to every action my government takes via our democratic elections like I won't accept it. I do wholeheartedly accept it, every American is responsible for the actions of our government. That's because our government not only represents us, it is us. To paraphrase The West Wing: when you try and hurl that at my feet, as if it were something to be ashamed of, something dirty, something to run away from, it won't work. Because I will pick it up and wear it as a badge of honor.