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Strange optics not to mention the elephant in the room. I could see them hitting some roadblocks and wanting to try again to get into China, but that would be
by jessewmc 7y ago
Strange optics not to mention the elephant in the room.
I could see them hitting some roadblocks and wanting to try again to get into China, but that would be a reasonable thing to come out and say.
It also would be reasonable to come out and say they've changed their minds due to political climate or some other risks.
Instead its... the new guy is busy?
- CharlesColeman 7y ago> Strange optics not to mention the elephant in the room. Not so strange to me. Don't companies usually come up with inoffensive BS for public statements like this? > Instead its... the new guy is busy? Maybe he wanted to spend more time with his family, too.
- iooi 7y agoThey probably have a significant investment from Chinese LPs. It could put those investors in a very awkward situation if YC was more explicit with their statement -- we've all seen how childishly defensive the Chinese government can get.
- criddell 7y agoThat money isn't that important. History isn't going to look back and think that YCombinator should have done more to look out for the wealth Chinese investors.
- dumbfoundded 7y agobut dude, think of the shareholder value /s
- killface 7y agowith how much love VCs get here, i'm pretty sure that's an accurate sentiment.
- larnmar 7y agoSo what’s the worst thing that can happen? They pull their money out? I’d have thought YC, given their history, wouldn’t have any trouble raising money.
- refrigerator 7y agoafaik YC doesn't have any LPs
- dang 7y agoYC has LPs. As far as I know they're all in the US. (Edit: yup, except one in the UK.)
- refrigerator 7y agoah my bad!
- matt4077 7y agoI interpreted OP to be referring to a different elephant, in another, oddly-shaped, room. ..but your feat of childish defensiveness applies either way.
- fogetti 7y agoYou mean as childish as the ordinary YC investors? You are right about that then
- paulddraper 7y agoWhat exactly is the elephant in the room? U.S. tariffs? Honk Kong unrest? IP violations?
- pcbro141 7y agoThe ~1 million Uighurs the Chinese government has in concentration camps. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/11/16/world/asia/china-xinjiang-documents.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/11/16/world/asia/ch...
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- nradov 7y agoSupposedly ethnic Han Chinese men are also being assigned by the government to sleep with the wives of detained Uyghur men. https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/cosleeping-10312019160528.html https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/cosleeping-103120191...
- tossAfterUsing 7y agohmm... i guess only the one's they've not yet sterilized? https://www.pop.org/the-plight-of-the-uyghur-people-2/ https://www.pop.org/the-plight-of-the-uyghur-people-2/ edit: wow... 2001
- yorwba 7y agoRFA is a US propaganda operation. Leave it up to them to make "sleeping with the wives of detained Uyghur men" sound like the job description of those government agents, rather than a consequence of poor people not having free guest beds on hand, so they have to share beds with someone, potentially with the whole household. Also clever use of "sleep with" to imply sex. (I don't doubt that some will abuse their power, but I'd expect Uyghur families to think far enough ahead to have another male relative in the same room, if not the same bed.) EDIT: I posted this as a bit of an experiment. In https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21601613 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21601613 I link to a TV program criticising the Chinese government's treatment of Uyghurs. Here I criticize blatant propaganda published by an organization funded by the US government for precisely that purpose. Almost an hour later, this comment is at -4 while the other is at +6. Agreement-based voting at it's finest, but I'm not going to let propaganda slide just because it pushes a viewpoint I agree with.
- tptacek 7y agoWhat elephant? Can you be more specific about what's controversial about this? Expansion into China would at least be a coherent basis for this stuff; then, sure, you'd want to know what compromises YC might be forced to make to stay in the good graces of their new host. This is YC withdrawing from China.
- ivalm 7y agoTotalitarian actions of the regime primarily against Muslim minorities (Uighurs), including concentration camps with >1M people.
- tptacek 7y agoYeah, no, I've read a newspaper in the last year. What exactly does that have to do with YC? They're withdrawing from China.
- ivalm 7y agoThey made a mistake of going into China. The abhorrent behavior of the Chinese government was highlighted in recent events, so YC decided to pull the plug. Perhaps change in leadership also played a role in this. There is definitely an up-tick in public outrange in the West vis-a-vis China.
- derekdahmer 7y agoHe's saying its weird they are withdrawing without saying why, when the human rights atrocities are likely a big factor.
- ivalm 7y agoIf they overtly offend China this would negatively impact YC current portfolio companies, discourage current/future LP, and other make their business more difficult. So they went with an intermediate approach.
- 7y ago
- leroy_masochist 7y agoWouldn't it be an abandonment of their duty of care to portfolio companies for them to poke the bear, though? I get that if PG tweeted something like, "We're pulling out of China because they're violently repressing pro-democracy protestors in Hong Kong and they run a re-education gulag archipelago for millions of Uighurs and they murder political prisoners so they can sell their organs through their state-administered transplant market", it would be satisfying to read -- but I'm not a YC alum. I don't run a company that could get screwed if YC lands on Beijing's shit list. Sure, that's probably a small slice of the portfolio, but this is still the right call from a business perspective. Actions speak louder than words, and this decision was pretty clear.
- qtplatypus 7y agoAlso they had staff in China. So saying something like that could put that staff at risk.
- aguyfromnb 7y ago>I don't run a company that could get screwed if YC lands on Beijing's shit list The fact that not being on an oppressive country's "shit list" is at all a priority is exactly the problem here. If your company relies on making money from these places, you deserve to fail.
- Angostura 7y ago> Actions speak louder than words. Umm, your entire comment was pointing out how embarrassingly loud words can be, and therefore how it was better just to take a quiet action.
- leroy_masochist 7y agofair point, but I still think they did right by their portfolio companies here
- undefined3840 7y agoIt’s understandable it’s a touchy subject. Why piss off China if you don’t have to? Only something to lose and nothing to gain. Also this story of a Chinese Stanford professor/investor’s “suicide” last year is quite the story. There’s a potential safety issue here too. https://www.forbes.com/sites/arthurherman/2018/12/13/a-death-in-silicon-valley-with-chinese-characteristics/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/arthurherman/2018/12/13/a-death...
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- hirundo 7y agoIf a leader in the field were to say something like "we are withdrawing due to our revulsion at the atrocities commited by the PRC against the Uyghur people" it at least has the potential to start a preference cascade and a mass movement.
- draw_down 7y agoYou first.
- ISL 7y agoMass incarceration and the destruction of Uighur culture is inhuman. The people of Hong Kong, and their right to live with self-determination, matter.
- radmuzom 7y agoBy that logic, they should withdraw funding for any US companies as US has committed the maximum number of war crimes and human rights abuses as compared to any other country.
- realusername 7y ago> It’s understandable it’s a touchy subject. Why piss off China if you don’t have to? Only something to lose and nothing to gain. Because that's pushing the line further and further of what the CCP can make people accept.
- taiwanboy 7y agoIt’s most likely due to the changing climate for companies (especially American and Canadian) operating in China. Check out this article: “how to survive an increasing difficult China” https://www.chinalawblog.com/2019/11/how-to-survive-an-increasingly-difficult-china.html https://www.chinalawblog.com/2019/11/how-to-survive-an-incre... Btw if you have a smb or an European company that doesn’t think it applies to you, you are signing your company’s death sentence
- bigpumpkin 7y agoI think it's reasonable to stick with what YC knows best: Startups in the US. Perhaps this will be an opportunity to use the capital that would've been directed to China for American startups. I am also encouraged they are still funding Chinese companies and have a nuanced approach to China in this highly politically charged environment that reminds me of McCarthyism.
- harimau777 7y agoCan you explain how opposition to China's human rights violations are comparable to McCarthyism?
- bigpumpkin 7y agoOppositions to China's human rights violations does not equal to a blanket opposition to cooperation or involvement with all things Chinese. Doing so only highlights a biased view that is highly prevalent in our government today that is precisely reminiscent of McCarthyism. Indeed one does not need to look far for such sentiments: "The Chinese aren’t smarter than we are. They don’t work harder than we do. They CHEAT." -Lindsey Graham https://twitter.com/LindseyGrahamSC/status/1166453158308208640 https://twitter.com/LindseyGrahamSC/status/11664531583082086... "At one point during the dinner, Trump noted of an unnamed country that the attendee said was clearly China, “almost every student that comes over to this country is a spy.” " -Donald Trump "FBI Is 'Harassing' Some Chinese Citizens Says Academic Group" https://www.wvxu.org/post/fbi-harassing-some-chinese-citizens-says-academic-group#stream/0 https://www.wvxu.org/post/fbi-harassing-some-chinese-citizen...
- peteretep 7y agoYou appear to be deeply misinformed about what the term McCarthyism means.
- tomnipotent 7y agoMc·Car·thy·ism: "A campaign or practice that endorses the use of unfair allegations and investigations." No, he's not deeply misinformed. Perfect example is the ridiculous spying bullshit that SuperMicro was accused of earlier this year.
- koolba 7y ago> It also would be reasonable to come out and say they've changed their minds due to political climate or some other risks. This is no different then when HR calls you in before you're terminated. Anything you say can, and will, be used against you so no point in saying anything. If (when?) they decide to take another crack at things it'd be helpful to not be on the record about anything.
- raywu 7y agoWhy do you think it's political climate that changed YC's mind? With or without political climate being an issue, doing business in China is different and relies on of relationship building that takes a long time to nurture. It might just be hard!
- throwaway2048 7y agolets just say its convenient timing for a "strategy changed back"
- seppin 7y ago> doing business in China is different and relies on of relationship building that takes a long time to nurture That's a strange way of saying they require a Chinese national to be part owner, and if it grows enough the party will seize it all.
- AYBABTME 7y agoMaybe GP actually referred to business cultural practices, which are indeed different in China. Have you considered this? Not everything related to China is black/white as you seem to portray it. There's more to it than a reductionist approach of thinking "they're mean communists and everything follows from that". * I dislike the tendency of some people to prohibits others from looking at things in a nuanced manner.
- arcticfox 7y agoCultural differences might make business in China difficult for internationals; political differences are what make it both ethically and strategically untenable. There's no comparison.
- AYBABTME 7y agoI didn't say otherwise. But not everyone's reason for leaving the market is going to be because of evil governance. Always simplifying interactions with China and the people and businesses there to a black/white scenario is counterproductive and intellectually disingenuous.
- jariel 7y ago"Strange optics not to mention the elephant in the room." The Elephant In The Room is writ large between the lines.
- AJ007 7y agoI had to dig up one of my old comments about YC China, because I specifically recall this one. I think the issue isn't one elephant in the room, it is elephants. My comment from August 15, 2018: "I would like to see a statement that YC China will not discriminate based on ethnicity, gender, religion, or sexual orientation and more importantly will not support startups which create technology which make doing so easier." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17765394 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17765394 * and this is not meant to exonerate US startups or hold them to another standard
- icelancer 7y agoThe idea that this kind of equality is going to be a thing in China is putting the cart about 200 miles ahead of the horse.
- pengstrom 7y agoThen don't do business with them? Not enforcing basic human rights is not a good look.
- Cthulhu_ 7y agoGotta start somewhere. There wouldn't be as strong a push for equality in the workspace nowadays if it wasn't for (amongst others) YC backed companies pushing for it.
- bakuninsbart 7y agoChina, as most other communist countries, implemented gender workplace equality much earlier than the West. Furthermore, China has probably the most aggressive affirmative action programs in the world. Yes, China is bad on human rights in some aspects, but these blatant misrepresentations need to stop. They only serve the massive propaganda campaign the US started in recent years.
- Jamwinner 7y agoThose are strong, and unlikely assertions. Do you have any sources for your claims?
- unityByFreedom 7y ago> Instead its... the new guy is busy? Where do you see this statement? I see, "change in leadership" and "now is not the right time". I translate that to, new leadership (and likely those who put him there) think now is not the right time. That could be for any reason internal or external.
- rolltiide 7y agoMan just roll with the PR Its a half truth divided by two, with the other two fourth’s being convenience of Qi’s own transition, we all know what we were expected to read and didnt which is the final quarter Just have a little chuckle at what they chose to say and get out of a hairy situation