11 ms·

I’m not trying to be glib when I say this, but I really don’t know which side you’re referring to. I’ve witnessed an equal amount of tribalism from supporters

I’m not trying to be glib when I say this, but I really don’t know which side you’re referring to. I’ve witnessed an equal amount of tribalism from supporters of both sides.

Verdex 7y ago
Hear, hear. I almost said exactly the same thing you just did. I have absolutely no clue which "side" he's talking about.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
notJim 7y ago
I think it's the party engaging in voter suppression throughout the country, and the one that stripped the powers of the governor when someone from the other side won, and the one that literally fled the state so that the legislature didn't have quorum and couldn't pass legislation, even though they were a clear minority. Or the one that refused to confirm a seat on the supreme court for nearly a year, in an unprecedented move. I could go on.
- Frondo 7y ago
  I have a couple of friends who are basically checked out when it comes to politics; they don't pay attention at all, and generally repeat what they hear from others, if asked. They'd say the same thing, "they're both the same," because it's an old and easy refrain to say "all politicians are crooks" -- no one will question you on it and you won't get called out for giving a non-answer to it. It could be that GP is also politically disengaged, in which case "they're all tribalists" is not an unreasonable position; yet not one that will shed a lot of light on any further topics.
- gred 7y ago
  I think GP has a point, and I'll illustrate by trying to simply flip the very convenient mirror that you've set up. Please get past the initial emotional response (canards! blasphemy!) and just realize that this is a paragraph that roughly half the country will read with a straight face and agree with. "I think it's the party engaging in voter fraud [1] throughout the country, and the one that tried to impeach the president when someone from the other side won [2], and the one that literally fled the state so that the legislature didn't have quorum and couldn't pass legislation [3], even though they were a clear minority. Or the one that falsely accused a supreme court nominee of rape [4], in an unprecedented move. I could go on." It's evident to me that people of all political bents in this country are extremely tribalistic, and none of the tribes count many saints among their numbers. Citations added simply to highlight that I'm not pulling any of this out of thin air: [1] https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/politics/impeachment-support-house-democrats/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/politics/impeac... [3] https://www.npr.org/2011/02/17/133847336/wis-democratic-lawmakers-flee-to-prevent-vote https://www.npr.org/2011/02/17/133847336/wis-democratic-lawm... [4] https://reason.com/2018/11/05/brett-kavanaugh-due-process-false-rape/ https://reason.com/2018/11/05/brett-kavanaugh-due-process-fa...
p1necone 7y ago
Can you elaborate? As someone outside of America I can't imagine how anyone with critical thinking ability could equate the two major parties. The Republicans are blatantly criminal and far far more obstructive and disruptive. This really doesn't seem like it should be a controversial statement to me. Tribalism and "the other side is actually obviously evil" might look similar, but they're not the same.
- SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
  Obstructive and disruptive are intensely subjective labels. Anyone who doesn't get what they want can say "oh, I should've gotten it, but I was disrupted and obstructed and that was very unfair". As an American, Brexit really drove this point home for me; the two largest British parties have both been insisting for years now that they're trying to drive Brexit forwards but the other side is unfairly obstructing them. "Criminal" is less subjective, but I just don't think it's true. I'm unaware of any kind of criminal behavior that Republicans get accused of but Democrats don't.
  - jjoonathan 7y ago
    I'll bite. Nixon telling South Vietnam he would give them a better deal if they dragged their feet during a peace negotiation with his political rival. Trump withholding military aid from Ukraine unless they made a public statement about an investigation into his political rival. What are the comparable accusations against the Democrats?
    - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
      Ted Kennedy asked the Soviets to help him defeat Reagan, explaining that Soviet-American relations would be critically important in the 1984 election and offering to fly to Moscow to help with their messaging. (Of course, like with Nixon and Trump, many people do dispute this characterization and Kennedy claimed the entire story was made up.)
      - jjoonathan 7y ago

I’m not trying to be glib when I say this, but I really don’t know which side you’re referring to. I’ve witnessed an equal amount of tribalism from supporters of both sides.

Verdex 7y ago

Hear, hear. I almost said exactly the same thing you just did. I have absolutely no clue which "side" he's talking about.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

notJim 7y ago

I think it's the party engaging in voter suppression throughout the country, and the one that stripped the powers of the governor when someone from the other side won, and the one that literally fled the state so that the legislature didn't have quorum and couldn't pass legislation, even though they were a clear minority. Or the one that refused to confirm a seat on the supreme court for nearly a year, in an unprecedented move. I could go on.

Frondo 7y ago
I have a couple of friends who are basically checked out when it comes to politics; they don't pay attention at all, and generally repeat what they hear from others, if asked. They'd say the same thing, "they're both the same," because it's an old and easy refrain to say "all politicians are crooks" -- no one will question you on it and you won't get called out for giving a non-answer to it. It could be that GP is also politically disengaged, in which case "they're all tribalists" is not an unreasonable position; yet not one that will shed a lot of light on any further topics.
gred 7y ago
I think GP has a point, and I'll illustrate by trying to simply flip the very convenient mirror that you've set up. Please get past the initial emotional response (canards! blasphemy!) and just realize that this is a paragraph that roughly half the country will read with a straight face and agree with. "I think it's the party engaging in voter fraud [1] throughout the country, and the one that tried to impeach the president when someone from the other side won [2], and the one that literally fled the state so that the legislature didn't have quorum and couldn't pass legislation [3], even though they were a clear minority. Or the one that falsely accused a supreme court nominee of rape [4], in an unprecedented move. I could go on." It's evident to me that people of all political bents in this country are extremely tribalistic, and none of the tribes count many saints among their numbers. Citations added simply to highlight that I'm not pulling any of this out of thin air: [1] https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/politics/impeachment-support-house-democrats/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/politics/impeac... [3] https://www.npr.org/2011/02/17/133847336/wis-democratic-lawmakers-flee-to-prevent-vote https://www.npr.org/2011/02/17/133847336/wis-democratic-lawm... [4] https://reason.com/2018/11/05/brett-kavanaugh-due-process-false-rape/ https://reason.com/2018/11/05/brett-kavanaugh-due-process-fa...

p1necone 7y ago

Can you elaborate? As someone outside of America I can't imagine how anyone with critical thinking ability could equate the two major parties. The Republicans are blatantly criminal and far far more obstructive and disruptive. This really doesn't seem like it should be a controversial statement to me. Tribalism and "the other side is actually obviously evil" might look similar, but they're not the same.

SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
Obstructive and disruptive are intensely subjective labels. Anyone who doesn't get what they want can say "oh, I should've gotten it, but I was disrupted and obstructed and that was very unfair". As an American, Brexit really drove this point home for me; the two largest British parties have both been insisting for years now that they're trying to drive Brexit forwards but the other side is unfairly obstructing them. "Criminal" is less subjective, but I just don't think it's true. I'm unaware of any kind of criminal behavior that Republicans get accused of but Democrats don't.
- jjoonathan 7y ago
  I'll bite. Nixon telling South Vietnam he would give them a better deal if they dragged their feet during a peace negotiation with his political rival. Trump withholding military aid from Ukraine unless they made a public statement about an investigation into his political rival. What are the comparable accusations against the Democrats?
  - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
    Ted Kennedy asked the Soviets to help him defeat Reagan, explaining that Soviet-American relations would be critically important in the 1984 election and offering to fly to Moscow to help with their messaging. (Of course, like with Nixon and Trump, many people do dispute this characterization and Kennedy claimed the entire story was made up.)
    - jjoonathan 7y ago