4 ms·

This doesn't make sense to me, please educate me as to what I am missing. Why is the United States within its rights to gather intelligence within the Ecuadoria

This doesn't make sense to me, please educate me as to what I am missing. Why is the United States within its rights to gather intelligence within the Ecuadorian Embassy within England? It seems like embassies of foreign countries, not located within the US's borders means that the US government has no legal rights to any of that. To me it looks like the US violated the rights of not just Ecuador's sovereignty, but also Great Brittan's.

catalogia 7y ago
Basically, people have rights only insofar as governments consider that a convenient arrangement.
- 77pt77 7y ago
  Or in other words, rights only exist when both parties have a similar level of power.
- threeseed 7y ago
  Your rights are within the context of a society you live in. People in different countries have different rights. And governments can usurp those rights as needed e.g. jail you, kill you.
threeseed 7y ago
Curious what you think intelligence agencies actually do. Do you think the US/Israel respected Iranian law when they infiltrated nuclear facilities ? How about all of the Russian poisoning in the UK ? And I don't believe all of the various drones are qualified to operate in their respective airspaces.
SamReidHughes 7y ago
Maybe U.K.'s citizens have a right to be free from trespass, but extending that right to governments is a bit of an extrapolation.
roywiggins 7y ago
Yes, it's a violation of sovereignty. It's probably illegal under those countries' laws. But it's legal for the US government to do abroad, and breaking other countries' laws and sovereignty to obtain intelligence is more or less the entire job of our intelligence agencies. This is the job of every foreign intelligence agency. Otherwise they'd just be investigative journalists. Friendly countries spying on each other is super common. The US bugged Angela Merkle's cell phone! We do this. Everyone knows we do. They live with it, because they spy on us, too. For good and ill, this sort of thing has been considered playing by the rules for decades. You can compare the response to the Russia assassination campaigns on British soil, which (when too public to ignore) created a big public response because that sort of thing was considered out of bounds previously. And the response to American kidnap-and-torture plots in Europe. That's not to say we don't catch, try, imprison, and deport spies in the US and other countries do the same against us. But this is all part of a decades-long iterated prisoner's dilemma about what the "rules" are in international espionage.
- numismatex 7y ago
  You mean "the US considers it legal within the US". It's not legal. It's like the shit you see on Reddit about China and Russia spying, with the US playing the victim as if they weren't spying too, and better, before that. The same goes with corporate espionage and tech transfers. Hyptocrites. People were thrown in mental hospitals back in the day when they theorized about Echelon, Carnivore -- what we know developed into PRISM run by the 5 Eyes. These people should be ashamed and liable for all the problems they've caused at home and abroad. National Security Interests is an excuse. And a flimsy one. And one day, when the US isn't The Superpower anymore, they're going to pay for this shit if they continue this colonialistic, imperialistic bullshit.
- tomjakubowski 7y ago
  The overwhelming German public response to Merkel's bugging was one of outrage. Accepting your argument, doesn't that suggest it was actually out of bounds and not normal?
  - tptacek 7y ago
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Rebelgecko 7y ago
Spying on foreign people in foreign countries is pretty much every intelligence agency's raison d'etre
- raxxorrax 7y ago
  Yes, and part of the game is if you get caught you get into serious trouble. Ignoring it is a complete wrong approach. Assassinating political dissidents is also part of that game, so shouldn't we be angry at Russia? They just did their job, did they?
  - blaser-waffle 7y ago
    > Yes, and part of the game is if you get caught you get into serious trouble. Only if there are consequences. If you get caught killing another country's spies or otherwise behaving badly, they may retaliate and kill yours. They may invoke treaties or launch ICJ cases. If they have leverage, they may use it. Ecuador has no leverage. > Assassinating political dissidents is also part of that game, so shouldn't we be angry at Russia? They were Russian agents killing Russians defectors. That's an egregious violation, but they were ultimately taking care of their own. Wanna be a dissident, fine -- play dangerous games, win dangerous prizes. These killing also got a lot of attention because 1) they involved polonium / radiation poisoning, which is a particularly ruthless way of killing someone, and 2) they were in the western media. All of the people the CIA or MI6 had shot in response didn't get any airtime... > They just did their job, did they? Moral arguments notwithstanding, this is just another day in the spy game. I would take years of cloak and dagger casualties over another Iraq, or Vietnam, or a World War. Geopolitics gonna geopoltic.
    - raxxorrax 7y ago
      Then we must do something wrong, since we seem to get both. I don't know how many people the CIA and MI6 kills, but I am very certain that it is the end of a career of a spy if caught with extrajudicial killings. Even in Russia. Otherwise you quickly have imitators. But why waste our time with a story then?

catalogia 7y ago

Basically, people have rights only insofar as governments consider that a convenient arrangement.

77pt77 7y ago
Or in other words, rights only exist when both parties have a similar level of power.
threeseed 7y ago
Your rights are within the context of a society you live in. People in different countries have different rights. And governments can usurp those rights as needed e.g. jail you, kill you.

threeseed 7y ago

Curious what you think intelligence agencies actually do. Do you think the US/Israel respected Iranian law when they infiltrated nuclear facilities ? How about all of the Russian poisoning in the UK ? And I don't believe all of the various drones are qualified to operate in their respective airspaces.

SamReidHughes 7y ago

Maybe U.K.'s citizens have a right to be free from trespass, but extending that right to governments is a bit of an extrapolation.

roywiggins 7y ago

Yes, it's a violation of sovereignty. It's probably illegal under those countries' laws. But it's legal for the US government to do abroad, and breaking other countries' laws and sovereignty to obtain intelligence is more or less the entire job of our intelligence agencies. This is the job of every foreign intelligence agency. Otherwise they'd just be investigative journalists. Friendly countries spying on each other is super common. The US bugged Angela Merkle's cell phone! We do this. Everyone knows we do. They live with it, because they spy on us, too. For good and ill, this sort of thing has been considered playing by the rules for decades. You can compare the response to the Russia assassination campaigns on British soil, which (when too public to ignore) created a big public response because that sort of thing was considered out of bounds previously. And the response to American kidnap-and-torture plots in Europe. That's not to say we don't catch, try, imprison, and deport spies in the US and other countries do the same against us. But this is all part of a decades-long iterated prisoner's dilemma about what the "rules" are in international espionage.

numismatex 7y ago
You mean "the US considers it legal within the US". It's not legal. It's like the shit you see on Reddit about China and Russia spying, with the US playing the victim as if they weren't spying too, and better, before that. The same goes with corporate espionage and tech transfers. Hyptocrites. People were thrown in mental hospitals back in the day when they theorized about Echelon, Carnivore -- what we know developed into PRISM run by the 5 Eyes. These people should be ashamed and liable for all the problems they've caused at home and abroad. National Security Interests is an excuse. And a flimsy one. And one day, when the US isn't The Superpower anymore, they're going to pay for this shit if they continue this colonialistic, imperialistic bullshit.
tomjakubowski 7y ago
The overwhelming German public response to Merkel's bugging was one of outrage. Accepting your argument, doesn't that suggest it was actually out of bounds and not normal?
- tptacek 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

Rebelgecko 7y ago

Spying on foreign people in foreign countries is pretty much every intelligence agency's raison d'etre

raxxorrax 7y ago
Yes, and part of the game is if you get caught you get into serious trouble. Ignoring it is a complete wrong approach. Assassinating political dissidents is also part of that game, so shouldn't we be angry at Russia? They just did their job, did they?
- blaser-waffle 7y ago
  > Yes, and part of the game is if you get caught you get into serious trouble. Only if there are consequences. If you get caught killing another country's spies or otherwise behaving badly, they may retaliate and kill yours. They may invoke treaties or launch ICJ cases. If they have leverage, they may use it. Ecuador has no leverage. > Assassinating political dissidents is also part of that game, so shouldn't we be angry at Russia? They were Russian agents killing Russians defectors. That's an egregious violation, but they were ultimately taking care of their own. Wanna be a dissident, fine -- play dangerous games, win dangerous prizes. These killing also got a lot of attention because 1) they involved polonium / radiation poisoning, which is a particularly ruthless way of killing someone, and 2) they were in the western media. All of the people the CIA or MI6 had shot in response didn't get any airtime... > They just did their job, did they? Moral arguments notwithstanding, this is just another day in the spy game. I would take years of cloak and dagger casualties over another Iraq, or Vietnam, or a World War. Geopolitics gonna geopoltic.
  - raxxorrax 7y ago
    Then we must do something wrong, since we seem to get both. I don't know how many people the CIA and MI6 kills, but I am very certain that it is the end of a career of a spy if caught with extrajudicial killings. Even in Russia. Otherwise you quickly have imitators. But why waste our time with a story then?