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> since most young women aren't exactly excited to talk about code This may reflect your subjective experience, but I have had a different experience and would

> since most young women aren't exactly excited to talk about code This may reflect your subjective experience, but I have had a different experience and would (kindly) give you the heads up that this is a borderline sexist generalization. I've met women in the industry that are just as capable as nerding out over new tech as I am - even if it hasn't been very common (in my experience).

babadabada 7y ago
I'm a young woman in tech. I am happy to confirm that "since most young women aren't exactly excited to talk about code" is in fact some sexist bullshit.
- drno_ 7y ago
  While most people are not programmers, most programmers are not women. It's a subset of a subset, seems pretty accurate. It's worth noting though that most men aren't interested in discussing programming either. People in our field are few and far between :(
- magashna 7y ago
  > most young women I dare you to go to an average bar or club and try to talk about code with most young women. It's not happening. Most people don't code, and most coders are male.
  - crustacean 7y ago
    But why talk shop on a date at all though? - A shared niche interest is not sufficient basis for a good relationship. - I’m a woman in tech and I don’t necessarily wanna talk code on a first or second date, I’ve got professional development figured out on my own time.
    - magashna 7y ago
      The presumption was that it's sexist to assume you can't talk code with young women. I don't want to talk code with anyone 99% of my off time. But to say the reasoning is sexist is untrue.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    - username90 7y ago
      > But why talk shop on a date at all though? Because lots of programmers loves to talk about code? > A shared niche interest is not sufficient basis for a good relationship. Then what is a good basis for a relationship? A shared interest in ubiquitous interests like food, blockbusters or travel? I don't think that is much better. > I’m a woman in tech and I don’t necessarily wanna talk code on a first or second date, I’ve got professional development figured out on my own time. Good for you, not everyone feels like that though.
  - babadabada 7y ago
    > I dare you to go to an average bar or club and try to talk about code with most young women. I dare you to go to an average bar or club and try to talk about code to literally any person.
    - magashna 7y ago
      Exactly. The point is it's not sexist.
  - uwuhn 7y ago
    Even in certain parts of SF, which I'd argue is the most engineer-dense part of the US, you can go into an average bar or club and discover that most of the men aren't interested in talking about code either.
- leetcrew 7y ago
  the wording was sort of clumsy, but this is not a very charitable take. most people (men and women) really don't want to talk in depth about code or any other of your specific interests.
- cocomittens 7y ago
  Same. Though I do have to admit the gender ratio is skewed a bit at my company you can count on one hand the amount of female engineers while there is 100+ male ones. They even changed the female bathroom to be 2 male ones but left us a couple fancy individual ones which I'm fine with.
- SkyBelow 7y ago
  How? Most people don't want to talk code. Thus, given a demographic breakdown that relates neither positively nor negatively with talking code, one can assume the general pattern applies. Most old people don't want to talk code. Most young people don't want to talk code. Most left handed people don't want to talk code. None of these are discriminating. They are stating that a pattern true of the general population also applies to a demographic partition of the population.
  - babadabada 7y ago
    How? Because making broad assumptions about 50% of the population isn't a cool thing to do. Especially given the excessive amount of nonsense women in tech (and not in tech) have to deal with on a daily basis. Talk like this leads to women feeling excluded from the tech community. Also, specifically calling out "young women" as not being interested in tech really makes a lot of assumptions. Generally, people will talk about most topics - even if they aren't passionate about those topics themselves. Most women I know will happily talk about tech stuff with me, so maybe your approach is wrong.
    - x220 7y ago
      Do you never make generalizations or broad assumptions?
    - SkyBelow 7y ago
      >Because making broad assumptions about 50% of the population isn't a cool thing to do. Is it that those assumptions are not cool to make about 100% of the population either? Is it wrong of me to assume that the average person does not want to talk about code? Because if it isn't wrong to make the assumption about the average person, but it is wrong to make it about some subset, then isn't that, at its very core, treating that demographic different than the average? >Generally, people will talk about most topics - even if they aren't passionate about those topics themselves. Yes, most people will engage in enough conversation to be polite. But there is a significant difference between talking about something a person cares about and them politely carrying on a conversation they aren't interested in. These are not the same behavior and do not generally result in the same outcome . And none of this has to do with gender as I notice this when talking with friends of either gender.
- larnmar 7y ago
  Does being sexist make it untrue? Are truth and sexistness orthogonal axes? If you had to choose between saying something true but sexist and non-sexist but untrue, which would you pick?
mrfredward 7y ago
Can we agree that "most young women" != "women in tech", just like "most young men" != "men in tech"? Most men don't want to talk about code either.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- swagasaurus-rex 7y ago
  They do want to talk about their app idea though
username90 7y ago
The numbers don't add up though, with around 80% in the industry being men you'd expect there to be 4 nerdy men going after every nerdy woman even if they have exactly the same ratio of people who loves talking about code.
allovernow 7y ago
>would (kindly) give you the heads up that this is a borderline sexist generalization No, it's an explicitly sexist generalization, based on the reality that interests tend to be heavily gendered across disciplines and across societies. I also think it's absurd that we're supposed to dance around this fact in the name of politeness when it's right in front of our faces and affects almost every social interaction we have in life.
- kempbellt 7y ago
  Yo OP. My intent here was to help avoiding anyone taking on the assumption that "women don't want to talk code". I didn't mean to throw you or your comment under the bus as sexist - which is why I said "borderline". Obviously, most women don't code, because most people don't code. The likelihood of bumping into a woman randomly and her being able to nerd out about the latest NodeJS framework with you is about as likely as being able to bump into anyone and discuss the pros and cons to some new breakthrough in materials science - most people just aren't experienced in the field... My goal is to share a friendly word of hope to guys out there that might think there aren't ladies who will want to nerd out about code with them. There certainly are. You just need to put yourself in the right environment to meet people who have similar experience. Your local bar (unless you're in a very software heavy town), likely isn't the best place. Conferences, meetups, etc, might be worth checking out for meeting like-minds. Though, generally speaking, if you're looking for a conversation topic for a date, code wouldn't be my first suggestion. It's like talking politics. You might land yourself in an opinionated argument really quickly - fighting about the tradeoffs to upgrading to python3... If you don't have any other interests to talk about with a partner besides code, I highly suggest expanding your horizons. Learn to cook, or snowboard, or get into a popular TV show. Anything to diversify your personal experiences. It'll at least give you some fuel for more interesting conversations.
zozbot234 7y ago
OP wasn't necessarily talking about folks in the industry. Most young men aren't exactly excited to talk about code either!
nickpsecurity 7y ago
Replying here to kempbellt, allovernow, and mcguire: They were interested in "intimate relationships" with women. If I'm wanting to date a woman, I never bring up my tech knowledge. I tell them I'm an inventor who works on things that help people get things done, stop bad folks, etc. I tell them the goals in terms of what effects it has on people with no details. Women like that since non-technical ones see its value and more-technical ones still focus on people effects a bit more than guys. If woman wants tech details, I give them that. Virtually never happened outside tech-focused places like HN or Lobsters. I talk abstractly about it because the second I mention code I get tuned out, friend-zoned or some association with Hollywood's nerd characters (eg Big Bang Theory or some nerd on cop show). That's how most of them think across the tens of thousands I've interacted with in customer-focused jobs, parties, and public places. You don't even have to come onto them or anything to find out: just bring up tech in a 3rd-person way... 3rd person to separate it from yourself in their perception... and watch how they tune out, cut it down, or otherwise mentally shift gears. I stay on what they're likely to be interested in, be my fun/somewhat-bad self, etc. Once they know and like me, I drop some of that tech stuff in there. If anything, they just nod like it's some weird hobby I have, a nice thing to do on the side, sometimes just confused about a useless thing I do, or whatever. There's no strong connection most have to it that would benefit me in the slightest. I'm just telling them about it to be more honest at that point. Then, I usually move onto other topics with most people, esp women, often forgetting I even do tech. That's intentional given I lose opportunities with most people due to that association. It's rare that anybody outside tech areas thinks that stuff is neat or important. And those are almost always married. (sighs) Well, they still make good friends and coworkers. I tell them that, too. Always gets a smile or laugh out of them. Meanwhile, it's a hard fact that most women aren't into guys that engineer, code, or secure things. Epilogue: Funniest part is that most people talking about sexism in coding will tell you all kinds of ways society keeps women out of it. The actual sexism keeps women uninterested in deep, hands-on tech while reinforcing their interest in other things. Then, some of you talk about how it's sexist to think most women aren't going to be interested in tech or tech workers. I mean, it's a natural effect of both womens' interests in general and sexism that pushes women away from tech. Be consistent people. "I've met women in the industry that are just as capable as nerding out over new tech as I am" Adding this in there just in case anyone misreads my reply. In industry or tech-anything, we should ask open-ended questions to get to know each other instead of assuming anything. Folks will definitely meet others super-interested and capable in tech that they might not have expected to meet. There will be plenty of women along that path since they went to those places specifically because they were interested in tech, were nerds, and so on. This gets us back to don't judge people in general until you've had a chance to meet them. Look at meeting each person as maybe opening up opportunities for who knows what. The person I responded about was talking dates and meaningful relationships outside work, though. That's a different thing altogether. That's what my comment addressed.

babadabada 7y ago

I'm a young woman in tech. I am happy to confirm that "since most young women aren't exactly excited to talk about code" is in fact some sexist bullshit.

drno_ 7y ago
While most people are not programmers, most programmers are not women. It's a subset of a subset, seems pretty accurate. It's worth noting though that most men aren't interested in discussing programming either. People in our field are few and far between :(
magashna 7y ago
> most young women I dare you to go to an average bar or club and try to talk about code with most young women. It's not happening. Most people don't code, and most coders are male.
- crustacean 7y ago
  But why talk shop on a date at all though? - A shared niche interest is not sufficient basis for a good relationship. - I’m a woman in tech and I don’t necessarily wanna talk code on a first or second date, I’ve got professional development figured out on my own time.
  - magashna 7y ago
    The presumption was that it's sexist to assume you can't talk code with young women. I don't want to talk code with anyone 99% of my off time. But to say the reasoning is sexist is untrue.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - username90 7y ago
    > But why talk shop on a date at all though? Because lots of programmers loves to talk about code? > A shared niche interest is not sufficient basis for a good relationship. Then what is a good basis for a relationship? A shared interest in ubiquitous interests like food, blockbusters or travel? I don't think that is much better. > I’m a woman in tech and I don’t necessarily wanna talk code on a first or second date, I’ve got professional development figured out on my own time. Good for you, not everyone feels like that though.
- babadabada 7y ago
  > I dare you to go to an average bar or club and try to talk about code with most young women. I dare you to go to an average bar or club and try to talk about code to literally any person.
  - magashna 7y ago
    Exactly. The point is it's not sexist.
- uwuhn 7y ago
  Even in certain parts of SF, which I'd argue is the most engineer-dense part of the US, you can go into an average bar or club and discover that most of the men aren't interested in talking about code either.
leetcrew 7y ago
the wording was sort of clumsy, but this is not a very charitable take. most people (men and women) really don't want to talk in depth about code or any other of your specific interests.
cocomittens 7y ago
Same. Though I do have to admit the gender ratio is skewed a bit at my company you can count on one hand the amount of female engineers while there is 100+ male ones. They even changed the female bathroom to be 2 male ones but left us a couple fancy individual ones which I'm fine with.
SkyBelow 7y ago
How? Most people don't want to talk code. Thus, given a demographic breakdown that relates neither positively nor negatively with talking code, one can assume the general pattern applies. Most old people don't want to talk code. Most young people don't want to talk code. Most left handed people don't want to talk code. None of these are discriminating. They are stating that a pattern true of the general population also applies to a demographic partition of the population.
- babadabada 7y ago
  How? Because making broad assumptions about 50% of the population isn't a cool thing to do. Especially given the excessive amount of nonsense women in tech (and not in tech) have to deal with on a daily basis. Talk like this leads to women feeling excluded from the tech community. Also, specifically calling out "young women" as not being interested in tech really makes a lot of assumptions. Generally, people will talk about most topics - even if they aren't passionate about those topics themselves. Most women I know will happily talk about tech stuff with me, so maybe your approach is wrong.
  - x220 7y ago
    Do you never make generalizations or broad assumptions?
  - SkyBelow 7y ago
    >Because making broad assumptions about 50% of the population isn't a cool thing to do. Is it that those assumptions are not cool to make about 100% of the population either? Is it wrong of me to assume that the average person does not want to talk about code? Because if it isn't wrong to make the assumption about the average person, but it is wrong to make it about some subset, then isn't that, at its very core, treating that demographic different than the average? >Generally, people will talk about most topics - even if they aren't passionate about those topics themselves. Yes, most people will engage in enough conversation to be polite. But there is a significant difference between talking about something a person cares about and them politely carrying on a conversation they aren't interested in. These are not the same behavior and do not generally result in the same outcome . And none of this has to do with gender as I notice this when talking with friends of either gender.
larnmar 7y ago
Does being sexist make it untrue? Are truth and sexistness orthogonal axes? If you had to choose between saying something true but sexist and non-sexist but untrue, which would you pick?

mrfredward 7y ago

Can we agree that "most young women" != "women in tech", just like "most young men" != "men in tech"? Most men don't want to talk about code either.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
swagasaurus-rex 7y ago
They do want to talk about their app idea though

username90 7y ago

The numbers don't add up though, with around 80% in the industry being men you'd expect there to be 4 nerdy men going after every nerdy woman even if they have exactly the same ratio of people who loves talking about code.

allovernow 7y ago

>would (kindly) give you the heads up that this is a borderline sexist generalization No, it's an explicitly sexist generalization, based on the reality that interests tend to be heavily gendered across disciplines and across societies. I also think it's absurd that we're supposed to dance around this fact in the name of politeness when it's right in front of our faces and affects almost every social interaction we have in life.

kempbellt 7y ago
Yo OP. My intent here was to help avoiding anyone taking on the assumption that "women don't want to talk code". I didn't mean to throw you or your comment under the bus as sexist - which is why I said "borderline". Obviously, most women don't code, because most people don't code. The likelihood of bumping into a woman randomly and her being able to nerd out about the latest NodeJS framework with you is about as likely as being able to bump into anyone and discuss the pros and cons to some new breakthrough in materials science - most people just aren't experienced in the field... My goal is to share a friendly word of hope to guys out there that might think there aren't ladies who will want to nerd out about code with them. There certainly are. You just need to put yourself in the right environment to meet people who have similar experience. Your local bar (unless you're in a very software heavy town), likely isn't the best place. Conferences, meetups, etc, might be worth checking out for meeting like-minds. Though, generally speaking, if you're looking for a conversation topic for a date, code wouldn't be my first suggestion. It's like talking politics. You might land yourself in an opinionated argument really quickly - fighting about the tradeoffs to upgrading to python3... If you don't have any other interests to talk about with a partner besides code, I highly suggest expanding your horizons. Learn to cook, or snowboard, or get into a popular TV show. Anything to diversify your personal experiences. It'll at least give you some fuel for more interesting conversations.

zozbot234 7y ago

OP wasn't necessarily talking about folks in the industry. Most young men aren't exactly excited to talk about code either!

nickpsecurity 7y ago

Replying here to kempbellt, allovernow, and mcguire: They were interested in "intimate relationships" with women. If I'm wanting to date a woman, I never bring up my tech knowledge. I tell them I'm an inventor who works on things that help people get things done, stop bad folks, etc. I tell them the goals in terms of what effects it has on people with no details. Women like that since non-technical ones see its value and more-technical ones still focus on people effects a bit more than guys. If woman wants tech details, I give them that. Virtually never happened outside tech-focused places like HN or Lobsters. I talk abstractly about it because the second I mention code I get tuned out, friend-zoned or some association with Hollywood's nerd characters (eg Big Bang Theory or some nerd on cop show). That's how most of them think across the tens of thousands I've interacted with in customer-focused jobs, parties, and public places. You don't even have to come onto them or anything to find out: just bring up tech in a 3rd-person way... 3rd person to separate it from yourself in their perception... and watch how they tune out, cut it down, or otherwise mentally shift gears. I stay on what they're likely to be interested in, be my fun/somewhat-bad self, etc. Once they know and like me, I drop some of that tech stuff in there. If anything, they just nod like it's some weird hobby I have, a nice thing to do on the side, sometimes just confused about a useless thing I do, or whatever. There's no strong connection most have to it that would benefit me in the slightest. I'm just telling them about it to be more honest at that point. Then, I usually move onto other topics with most people, esp women, often forgetting I even do tech. That's intentional given I lose opportunities with most people due to that association. It's rare that anybody outside tech areas thinks that stuff is neat or important. And those are almost always married. (sighs) Well, they still make good friends and coworkers. I tell them that, too. Always gets a smile or laugh out of them. Meanwhile, it's a hard fact that most women aren't into guys that engineer, code, or secure things. Epilogue: Funniest part is that most people talking about sexism in coding will tell you all kinds of ways society keeps women out of it. The actual sexism keeps women uninterested in deep, hands-on tech while reinforcing their interest in other things. Then, some of you talk about how it's sexist to think most women aren't going to be interested in tech or tech workers. I mean, it's a natural effect of both womens' interests in general and sexism that pushes women away from tech. Be consistent people. "I've met women in the industry that are just as capable as nerding out over new tech as I am" Adding this in there just in case anyone misreads my reply. In industry or tech-anything, we should ask open-ended questions to get to know each other instead of assuming anything. Folks will definitely meet others super-interested and capable in tech that they might not have expected to meet. There will be plenty of women along that path since they went to those places specifically because they were interested in tech, were nerds, and so on. This gets us back to don't judge people in general until you've had a chance to meet them. Look at meeting each person as maybe opening up opportunities for who knows what. The person I responded about was talking dates and meaningful relationships outside work, though. That's a different thing altogether. That's what my comment addressed.