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> Hong Kong have been constant allies to the West This is certainly an... interesting assertion. HK is the financial conduit that made Chinese rise possible, a

> Hong Kong have been constant allies to the West This is certainly an... interesting assertion. HK is the financial conduit that made Chinese rise possible, and the engine that powers Chinese financial influence abroad. HKers enabled this, not so much the generation that's protesting mind you, but most remotely affluent HK migrant in the past 30 years was the beneficiary to this arrangement. Overall, fairly lazy and unsophisticated, Reddit tier analysis from generic American exceptionalism lens. Just to touch on XinJiang briefly, since people in the west are quick to draw on Godwins law and make ridiculous Nazi + genocide comparisons. The leaked NYT reports confirms if anything that the CPC motivations is consistent with their past claims of de-radicalization and de-secularization. There's no intention to eliminate if only because killing all the Uyghurs means China has to revise 56 minorities into 55, that would look bad on Xi's legacy. What is happening is an extremely immoral and excessive COIN strategy, you know the kind US embarked on post 9/11 that continues to this day. Each using instruments to their strength - US bombs, Chinese infrastructure. At best it would be classified as cultural-genocide, which is basically undefined and unenforceable in UN. The silver lining is that since the motivation is counter-terrorism, there's a chance China will pivot away from the harsh strategies. Mandatory disclaimer that explanation doesn't not mean endorsement. Regardless, it's always a little cringe to see Americans try to play the moral Trump card. Argue security, argue hegemony, argue influence, but don't argue morals like that has any weight anymore. HK rights bill passed on the same day US changed stance on West Bank settlements. Chinese containment is cold geopolitics. The appeal for international condemnation is particularly out of touch. China is a driver for global growth, economically and demographically, most countries including the majority of developed g20 has their future prosperity pegged to China. US is the least trade dependent major economy int he world with enviable geopolitical posturing that enables her to disengage with China on a long enough timeline, no one else has that benefit, and they have even less incentive to as US is becoming increasingly unreliable and withdrawn from the global order that she created. There's a reason why, including US, only 2/5 and 3/195 countries in the world banned Huawei despite years aggressive US posturing. South Korean just signed a defense agreement with China. Being near peer power with US means China is afforded the luxury of getting away with crimes against humanity like the US have. Want the world to shun the future Chinese order? Propose and _demonstrate_ a better one.

camgunz 7y ago
> Propose and _demonstrate_ a better one. Let's start with the very simple "have more than one viable political party". The CCP would never tolerate that. The rest of your comment is casual dismissal of "cultural genocide" and whataboutism. Rather than try and distract with transparently propagandist techniques, you should really consider reforms that the CCP could undertake to adhere to the rule of law and respect human rights in China. That at least would be constructive.
- dirtyid 7y ago
  >That at least would be constructive. Starting with the western values as endpoint for reform is not constructive but "transparently propagandist". Different countries apply different models at different points in development - "rule of law and respect human rights - is simply not a priority for China or many developing nations, where the moral calculus is better spent on attaining other freedoms, chiefly the freedom from want. > casual dismissal of "cultural genocide" and whataboutism The point is cultural genocide is something that gets pragmatically dismissed everyday in the interest of geopolitics. Just like how people like to causally assert "whataboutism" whenever the brazenly obvious is pointed out: China gets away with abuses and will continue to because America led the way. If Americans want human rights to apply to large countries, start at home and demonstrate that international rule of law applies to everyone. No one takes hypocrites seriously except hypocrites themselves.
  - camgunz 7y ago
    > Starting with the western values as endpoint for reform is not constructive but "transparently propagandist" Ah but the rule of law is a global concept many disparate civilizations invented independently. Even China, here's Wikipedia: > In China, members of the school of legalism during the 3rd century BC argued for using law as a tool of governance, but they promoted "rule by law" as opposed to "rule of law", meaning that they placed the aristocrats and emperor above the law.[15] In contrast, the Huang–Lao school of Daoism rejected legal positivism in favor of a natural law that even the ruler would be subject to.[16] > "rule of law and respect human rights - is simply not a priority for China or many developing nations China is the 2nd largest GDP in the world. It's no longer a developing nation. It has the ability to destroy the entire planet with pollution from its industry, its biotech research, and of course its nuclear weapons. This is not an excuse. It's also not an excuse for any nation anywhere. No nation can be small enough to abduct, torture, murder, and harvest organs from its own citizens. The mere suggestion is disgusting. > The point is cultural genocide is something that gets pragmatically dismissed everyday in the interest of geopolitics. And practically everyone in this thread is lamenting that. We're ashamed of our nations for not acting against this, and OP explicitly calls for us to take action. That is, except commenters like you, who are working extra hard to make excuses for the CCP with twisted arguments and whataboutism. Speaking of: > Just like how people like to causally assert "whataboutism" whenever the brazenly obvious is pointed out: China gets away with abuses and will continue to because America led the way. Besides being--again--whataboutism, you can't have it both ways. You can't say, "we're justified in doing the worst things the US has ever done" without also saying, "we're trying very hard to do the best things the US has ever done". Which, to be clear, are: - rule of law - respect for an expansive, equal set of human rights for all - free, fair, open elections This is a very basic human rule that children learn. Someone else's bad behavior doesn't excuse your own bad behavior. Take responsibility for your actions, and try to do better. Say what you want about the US, but we try and do that, and anyone with even a passing knowledge of US history knows it's working.

camgunz 7y ago

> Propose and _demonstrate_ a better one. Let's start with the very simple "have more than one viable political party". The CCP would never tolerate that. The rest of your comment is casual dismissal of "cultural genocide" and whataboutism. Rather than try and distract with transparently propagandist techniques, you should really consider reforms that the CCP could undertake to adhere to the rule of law and respect human rights in China. That at least would be constructive.

dirtyid 7y ago
>That at least would be constructive. Starting with the western values as endpoint for reform is not constructive but "transparently propagandist". Different countries apply different models at different points in development - "rule of law and respect human rights - is simply not a priority for China or many developing nations, where the moral calculus is better spent on attaining other freedoms, chiefly the freedom from want. > casual dismissal of "cultural genocide" and whataboutism The point is cultural genocide is something that gets pragmatically dismissed everyday in the interest of geopolitics. Just like how people like to causally assert "whataboutism" whenever the brazenly obvious is pointed out: China gets away with abuses and will continue to because America led the way. If Americans want human rights to apply to large countries, start at home and demonstrate that international rule of law applies to everyone. No one takes hypocrites seriously except hypocrites themselves.
- camgunz 7y ago
  > Starting with the western values as endpoint for reform is not constructive but "transparently propagandist" Ah but the rule of law is a global concept many disparate civilizations invented independently. Even China, here's Wikipedia: > In China, members of the school of legalism during the 3rd century BC argued for using law as a tool of governance, but they promoted "rule by law" as opposed to "rule of law", meaning that they placed the aristocrats and emperor above the law.[15] In contrast, the Huang–Lao school of Daoism rejected legal positivism in favor of a natural law that even the ruler would be subject to.[16] > "rule of law and respect human rights - is simply not a priority for China or many developing nations China is the 2nd largest GDP in the world. It's no longer a developing nation. It has the ability to destroy the entire planet with pollution from its industry, its biotech research, and of course its nuclear weapons. This is not an excuse. It's also not an excuse for any nation anywhere. No nation can be small enough to abduct, torture, murder, and harvest organs from its own citizens. The mere suggestion is disgusting. > The point is cultural genocide is something that gets pragmatically dismissed everyday in the interest of geopolitics. And practically everyone in this thread is lamenting that. We're ashamed of our nations for not acting against this, and OP explicitly calls for us to take action. That is, except commenters like you, who are working extra hard to make excuses for the CCP with twisted arguments and whataboutism. Speaking of: > Just like how people like to causally assert "whataboutism" whenever the brazenly obvious is pointed out: China gets away with abuses and will continue to because America led the way. Besides being--again--whataboutism, you can't have it both ways. You can't say, "we're justified in doing the worst things the US has ever done" without also saying, "we're trying very hard to do the best things the US has ever done". Which, to be clear, are: - rule of law - respect for an expansive, equal set of human rights for all - free, fair, open elections This is a very basic human rule that children learn. Someone else's bad behavior doesn't excuse your own bad behavior. Take responsibility for your actions, and try to do better. Say what you want about the US, but we try and do that, and anyone with even a passing knowledge of US history knows it's working.