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The guy "no one likes" isn't innocent of China-worship. Guiltier than most. On Jinping: "He is a great leader who very much has the respect of his people. He is

by kick 7y ago

The guy "no one likes" isn't innocent of China-worship. Guiltier than most. On Jinping: "He is a great leader who very much has the respect of his people. He is also a good man in a 'tough business.'" Misrepresenting him as "willing to sever that codependent relationship" is harmful. He's just as complicit if not more than most politicians, and most of his actions involving China have been inconsistent and self-serving.

mc32 7y ago
He’s prone to this honne tatemae and it’s hard to know his actual take. I think he’s like a used car salesman who uses and throws whatever cheap trick he has to try to get his way...
- CharlesColeman 7y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae > In Japan, honne are a person's true feelings and desires (本音 hon'ne, "true sound"), and tatemae are the behavior and opinions one displays in public (建前 tatemae, "built in front", "façade").
metalchianti 7y ago
Despite his praise of Xi (IMO it's just part of Trump's "style" of negotiating), he's willingly initiated a trade war. I think that's a good indicator that he's willing to at least threaten decoupling. Trump has taken this much farther than any preceding US president.
cabaalis 7y ago
> and most of his actions involving China have been inconsistent and self-serving. I think what we're seeing is a president who is at odds with the intelligence and diplomatic communities. It's truly testing the ideas of who's actually in charge. The president assumes since he was elected and runs the executive branch that he has the final say on what will be done, and will go "off-script" in direct communications with other leaders to forward his agenda. The diplomats/intelligence have long-established precedents and procedures and want everyone, including the president, to not rock their boat. When they are unable to work together, you will see these inconsistent decisions being made.
- jimbokun 7y ago
  Every US President has had the final say on what will be done, within the laws established by Congress. Including this President. The problem is this President does not take into account the knowledge and capabilities of his intelligence and diplomatic communities, leading to stupid and naive decisions because the other heads of state are better informed and are better negotiators than him. The intelligence and diplomatic communities are resources at his disposal he often chooses to ignore, so his screw ups are squarely his own with no one else to blame.
natalyarostova 7y ago
How is that a misrepresentation? He's started a trade war with them. In a world with a few nations with ICBMs it's often valuable to maintain some semblance of respect with countries capable of destroying you, even when initiating a trade war. Most people didn't enjoy the cold war.
- swagasaurus-rex 7y ago
  Countries routinely disrespect each other all the time. "War is the continuation of politics by other means." - Carl_von_Clausewitz
friendlybus 7y ago
He started a trade war with the country. He isn't just one thing, but idk how people are forgetting the last year and a half so quickly on the run up to Christmas. This guy is notorious for being 'post truth' and making off colour jokes which is bad, but what he says is surely quieter than what he does?
hammock 7y ago
Those public statements are part of his negotiating style. It's mostly disingenuous speech.
csomar 7y ago
> On Jinping: "He is a great leader who very much has the respect of his people. He is also a good man in a 'tough business.'" Praising him doesn't mean he likes him or he'll make of him his friend. It's more of a respect thing. He respects the man for working on the interest of his country.
- kick 7y ago
  "Good man" implies moral endorsement, and Jinping isn't working in the "interest of his country," he's working in the interest of Han Chinese. "Hitler was a great man!" is a totally appropriate thing to say using the logic you're applying.
  - DuskStar 7y ago
    I mean, "Alexander the Great" was a great man by common definition. That should be pretty obvious. I'd expand that to other great conquerors - Genghis Khan, Napoleon, and many others. Does Hitler really not belong on a list like that? So would Stalin, Churchill and Roosevelt, of course - but I don't think greatness requires goodness. Or from popular culture: > “The wand chooses the wizard, remember … I think we must expect great things from you, Mr Potter … After all, He Who Must Not Be Named did great things – terrible, yes, but great.” - Ollivander
rohit2412 7y ago
Pretty disingenuous don't you think? We all know trump says a lot of bullshit and contradictory things. He isn't Obama who was really good with his words. But if all you have is trump saying "good strong leader", then you don't have much. Show actions not words.
- dlp211 7y ago
  Trump abandoned the TPP which would have put actual pressure on China in favor of this visible trade war which is nothing more than a tax on American consumers.
  - rohit2412 7y ago
    Even Bernie Sanders was against TPP. Do you also think he's in bed with the Chinese government? Chinese economy is definitely struggling. I don't buy the argument that the trade wars do not work. They hurt both sides. Question is who does it hurt more? It feels like you haven't thought of it in a game theoretic perspective. In the classical prisoner paradox, the two prisoners gain the most by collaboration. But if one of the prisoner shows no good faith collaboration, it might be necessary for the other prisoner to also stop putting their faith in the uncollaborative one.
    - dlp211 7y ago
      Sanders is an ideologue who was against the TPP on anti-business position and nothing to do with its impact on China. The TPP set up an alliance between all of the players in that region and explicitly left out China in order to give that group negotiation power over China. But nuanced policy debate is dead in America so let's use the tool that fucks us all. The worst part about the trade deal is the harm on our agricultural sector, but I guess at least they voted for their own demise.
ufmace 7y ago
This is how negotiations work. It's rarely productive to simply trash and call out the guy on the other side in speeches from the top level. The real sticks and carrots are mostly in fine print and smaller-time negotiations. They call him "unsophisticated", but how sophisticated are the people who think that public speeches towards you geopolitical rivals really mean what they say?
noobermin 7y ago
The problem with Trump is that he says many different things at different times which are contradictory and then people hone in on one thing over another. His actions too are contradictory, he has tried to curry personal favor with Xi whilst engaging with a trade war with the same.

by kick 7y ago

mc32 7y ago

He’s prone to this honne tatemae and it’s hard to know his actual take. I think he’s like a used car salesman who uses and throws whatever cheap trick he has to try to get his way...

CharlesColeman 7y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae > In Japan, honne are a person's true feelings and desires (本音 hon'ne, "true sound"), and tatemae are the behavior and opinions one displays in public (建前 tatemae, "built in front", "façade").

metalchianti 7y ago

Despite his praise of Xi (IMO it's just part of Trump's "style" of negotiating), he's willingly initiated a trade war. I think that's a good indicator that he's willing to at least threaten decoupling. Trump has taken this much farther than any preceding US president.

cabaalis 7y ago

> and most of his actions involving China have been inconsistent and self-serving. I think what we're seeing is a president who is at odds with the intelligence and diplomatic communities. It's truly testing the ideas of who's actually in charge. The president assumes since he was elected and runs the executive branch that he has the final say on what will be done, and will go "off-script" in direct communications with other leaders to forward his agenda. The diplomats/intelligence have long-established precedents and procedures and want everyone, including the president, to not rock their boat. When they are unable to work together, you will see these inconsistent decisions being made.

jimbokun 7y ago
Every US President has had the final say on what will be done, within the laws established by Congress. Including this President. The problem is this President does not take into account the knowledge and capabilities of his intelligence and diplomatic communities, leading to stupid and naive decisions because the other heads of state are better informed and are better negotiators than him. The intelligence and diplomatic communities are resources at his disposal he often chooses to ignore, so his screw ups are squarely his own with no one else to blame.

natalyarostova 7y ago

How is that a misrepresentation? He's started a trade war with them. In a world with a few nations with ICBMs it's often valuable to maintain some semblance of respect with countries capable of destroying you, even when initiating a trade war. Most people didn't enjoy the cold war.

swagasaurus-rex 7y ago
Countries routinely disrespect each other all the time. "War is the continuation of politics by other means." - Carl_von_Clausewitz

friendlybus 7y ago

He started a trade war with the country. He isn't just one thing, but idk how people are forgetting the last year and a half so quickly on the run up to Christmas. This guy is notorious for being 'post truth' and making off colour jokes which is bad, but what he says is surely quieter than what he does?

hammock 7y ago

Those public statements are part of his negotiating style. It's mostly disingenuous speech.

csomar 7y ago

> On Jinping: "He is a great leader who very much has the respect of his people. He is also a good man in a 'tough business.'" Praising him doesn't mean he likes him or he'll make of him his friend. It's more of a respect thing. He respects the man for working on the interest of his country.

kick 7y ago
"Good man" implies moral endorsement, and Jinping isn't working in the "interest of his country," he's working in the interest of Han Chinese. "Hitler was a great man!" is a totally appropriate thing to say using the logic you're applying.
- DuskStar 7y ago
  I mean, "Alexander the Great" was a great man by common definition. That should be pretty obvious. I'd expand that to other great conquerors - Genghis Khan, Napoleon, and many others. Does Hitler really not belong on a list like that? So would Stalin, Churchill and Roosevelt, of course - but I don't think greatness requires goodness. Or from popular culture: > “The wand chooses the wizard, remember … I think we must expect great things from you, Mr Potter … After all, He Who Must Not Be Named did great things – terrible, yes, but great.” - Ollivander

rohit2412 7y ago

Pretty disingenuous don't you think? We all know trump says a lot of bullshit and contradictory things. He isn't Obama who was really good with his words. But if all you have is trump saying "good strong leader", then you don't have much. Show actions not words.

dlp211 7y ago
Trump abandoned the TPP which would have put actual pressure on China in favor of this visible trade war which is nothing more than a tax on American consumers.
- rohit2412 7y ago
  Even Bernie Sanders was against TPP. Do you also think he's in bed with the Chinese government? Chinese economy is definitely struggling. I don't buy the argument that the trade wars do not work. They hurt both sides. Question is who does it hurt more? It feels like you haven't thought of it in a game theoretic perspective. In the classical prisoner paradox, the two prisoners gain the most by collaboration. But if one of the prisoner shows no good faith collaboration, it might be necessary for the other prisoner to also stop putting their faith in the uncollaborative one.
  - dlp211 7y ago
    Sanders is an ideologue who was against the TPP on anti-business position and nothing to do with its impact on China. The TPP set up an alliance between all of the players in that region and explicitly left out China in order to give that group negotiation power over China. But nuanced policy debate is dead in America so let's use the tool that fucks us all. The worst part about the trade deal is the harm on our agricultural sector, but I guess at least they voted for their own demise.

ufmace 7y ago

This is how negotiations work. It's rarely productive to simply trash and call out the guy on the other side in speeches from the top level. The real sticks and carrots are mostly in fine print and smaller-time negotiations. They call him "unsophisticated", but how sophisticated are the people who think that public speeches towards you geopolitical rivals really mean what they say?

noobermin 7y ago

The problem with Trump is that he says many different things at different times which are contradictory and then people hone in on one thing over another. His actions too are contradictory, he has tried to curry personal favor with Xi whilst engaging with a trade war with the same.