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Twitch does do this with its SureStream ads and its much worse for a livestream than a video since with a video you can resume where you left off after the ad f

by plopz 7y ago

Twitch does do this with its SureStream ads and its much worse for a livestream than a video since with a video you can resume where you left off after the ad finished whereas for a livestream you just lose what was happening during the ad. Twitch also removed the ad-free benefit from twitch prime.

pas 7y ago
wow. that's absurd. I mean so full circle and more compared to last century TV.
OscarTheGrinch 7y ago
Such poor behavior creates gaps in the canopy, providing sunlight for other services to grow. If you don't like how a service is treating you, switch to a better one and make the case to your peers why they should do likewise. A healthy internet is ultimately up to us to build and maintain.
- plopz 7y ago
  This is actually interesting right now because Microsoft, Google and Facebook all seem to be trying to get into streaming. I would definitely like to see more competition in this space so that Twitch doesn't get complacent.
- fiddlerwoaroof 7y ago
  The issue is that an alternate service can only grow in the gaps if it has a viable business model: so far, monetizing internet services for the general public without advertising and tracking is a mostly-unsolved problem, despite interesting efforts like Brave.
  - jlarocco 7y ago
    > monetizing internet services for the general public without advertising and tracking is a mostly-unsolved problem I feel like that's not a real problem. Or, maybe only a problem for services that care more about having a ton of users than being profitable and sustainable. There are quite a few services (SmugMug, Vimeo, NetFlix, etc.) that charge money, don't have advertisements, and are doing just fine. It's weird that so many web companies decide to go the sleazy advertisement/tracking/malware route rather than just charge money for the services they provide.
    - hombre_fatal 7y ago
      > It's weird that so many web companies decide to go the sleazy advertisement/tracking/malware route rather than just charge money for the services they provide. You will find very quickly how reluctant people are to pay for anything despite a few cultural-phenomenon-level exceptions like Netflix. I'm amazed how many people, like my own coworkers making $100k+, listen to Spotify all day every day yet will endure advertisement after advertisement in their stream of music instead of paying $10/month. If someone isn't even going to pay for Spotify despite it being a central part of their day to day experience, GG to your little service. I think advertising has played a major hand in shepherding us into this position that divorced us from the idea of paying for content we enjoy. There is going to have to be a major cultural change to bring us back into a healthy relationship with content. One common response to this is "well, maybe everyone should be hobbyists again making content for free," but surely we can find a better middleground than structuring things such that we depend on people toiling away in their freetime to produce the content we happen to want. For example, I'd rather my favorite content providers be able to feed themselves working on this content. We both benefit: I get to enjoy more content. Depending on hobby work doesn't get us there.
      - jlarocco 7y ago
        > You will find very quickly how reluctant people are to pay for anything despite a few cultural-phenomenon-level exceptions like Netflix. That's absolutely not true, though. People buy stuff all the time. Clothing, shoes, sporting goods, dishes, food, housewares, books, DVDs, etc. The "freemium" approach Spotify takes is a poor example because they're not charging for their real service of music streaming, but instead to get rid of advertisements. They've moved their own goalposts, and the question isn't "Is streaming music worth $10 a month?" but "Is it worth $10 a month to get rid of this commercial?" If the options were "Pay $10 to stream music" or "Listen to nothing," the results might be a lot different. > One common response to this is "well, maybe everyone should be hobbyists again making content for free," but surely we can find a better middleground than structuring things such that we depend on people toiling away in their freetime to produce the content we happen to want. For example, I'd rather my favorite content providers be able to feed themselves working on this content. We both benefit: I get to enjoy more content. Depending on hobby work doesn't get us there. I'm not making that argument, and you're setting up a false dichotomy. There's no reason content creators need to use advertisements and can't charge for their content instead. It worked fine for music and movies for over a hundred years, and books have been using that model for hundreds of years before that.
Semaphor 7y ago
> Twitch does do this with its SureStream ads Are those special and only run for large streamers? I never see ads on twitch, but the biggest streamer I watch has under 300 viewers.
- GlitchMr 7y ago
  It's the streamer who decides when the ads should show (this is because those ads hide the stream, so they should be used when nothing is happening). If they never tell Twitch to show ads, SureStream ads won't appear.
  - Semaphor 7y ago
    I watch at least one streamer who runs ads in her breaks, she is a partner. So does she have a to specifically select those surestream ads? Maybe they only show in certain geographic locations?
bscphil 7y ago
I've never seen an ad on Twitch with uBlock origin installed. If this technology can't bypass ad blockers, why is there a difference?
- plopz 7y ago
  I don't think uBlock can or does block it, here's the issue that tracks the research into it: https://github.com/uBlockOrigin/uAssets/issues/5184 https://github.com/uBlockOrigin/uAssets/issues/5184 as well as an attempt to block them here: https://github.com/instance01/Twitch-HLS-AdBlock https://github.com/instance01/Twitch-HLS-AdBlock You may be ad-free for another reason such as a grandfathered twitch prime that will expire when it next renews, twitch turbo, or a subscription to a channel that opts-in to the ad-free sub benefit. You might also just be in a region or demographic where ads aren't being bought, so you wouldn't get any then.
  - bscphil 7y ago
    Maybe uMatrix is blocking them somehow? I've never seen an ad, even on channels I don't follow or subscribe to. My rulesets are very strict, but you're right, if they really come through the video stream I don't know how I'm blocking it.
    - JaRail 7y ago
      Maybe you buy a lot of subscriptions and currency? I bet they avoid annoying their most profitable users. While it might have been coincidental, I never got ads until I unsubbed from the vast majority of streamers I follow. Same for other things like gifted subs. I used to receive a ton of gifted subs until I started lowering my sub count. They are obsessed with performance metrics. Big spenders have a very different experience. Now, whenever I get an ad, I immediately close twitch and find something on YT/Mixer to watch. I'm training their algorithms to leave me alone.
      - cehrlich 7y ago
        I get no ads on Twitch, and I currently don’t have Twitch Prime or any subscriptions. I’ve spent maybe 50 bucks on Twitch in the 3-4 year lifespan of my account. I’m running Vivaldi (which uses Chromium) with uBlock Origin, Ghostery (I know), and HTTPS Everywhere, on MacOS. I get ads when I use Twitch, with the same account, on a stock installation of Chrome (which I use as my backup browser for when I don’t want to figure out which extension is breaking a website). So it’s not related to my account, location, etc.
pingyong 7y ago
Twitch is running two kinds of ads, one type is "normal" and can be blocked by ublock, the other one is weird - it's definitely not just spliced into the video stream either, as far as I remember (I have Amazon Prime so I don't see ads), but ublock also wasn't able to block it. However, I would argue that it is not actually worse for several reasons. For one, the streamer decides exactly when and how to play ads - so if the ad timing bothers you, you're going to start watching someone else, which in turn creates an incentive to keep streams ad-free or at least run ads at specific times. The second reason is that the usage pattern of Twitch is different. I go to twitch (if it's a livestream) to actually watch the content, whereas I use YouTube in many cases like I would use an article, skipping through videos and back and forth looking for a specific part or specific information, and if the information isn't there quickly trying the next video. This workflow gets completely destroyed by ads. To the point where if YouTube would somehow force me to watch ads, I would simply stop using it except for the 2-3 weekly videos I actually plan to watch beforehand.
- plopz 7y ago
  I don't think Twitch Prime has the ad-free benefit anymore, they moved that into Twitch Turbo. The ads are also definitely stitched into the HLS playlist as segments, so even if you were to block them you would see a black screen for the duration of the ad, although Twitch does seem to be doing something where if a segment fails to load it tries to load the next one a few seconds later, so you might only see the black screen for 5s or so.
everdrive 7y ago
>Twitch also removed the ad-free benefit from twitch prime. This seems standard: acquire users, then make the service worse for users. (and better for shareholders and/or advertisers)
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  Until people stop patronizing businesses that do that, and choose to patronizes businesses that don't do that, things will not change.
  - everdrive 7y ago
    It's hard to know until they perform the bait and switch. It's certainly not the only reason that brand loyalty is dead, but it's one that's often on my mind. I don't have any confidence that my trust in a brand will mean anything in the long term. A new service exists? Well, it might be nice right now, but if I let myself rely on it the service will become slightly worse over the years.

by plopz 7y ago

pas 7y ago

wow. that's absurd. I mean so full circle and more compared to last century TV.

OscarTheGrinch 7y ago

Such poor behavior creates gaps in the canopy, providing sunlight for other services to grow. If you don't like how a service is treating you, switch to a better one and make the case to your peers why they should do likewise. A healthy internet is ultimately up to us to build and maintain.

plopz 7y ago
This is actually interesting right now because Microsoft, Google and Facebook all seem to be trying to get into streaming. I would definitely like to see more competition in this space so that Twitch doesn't get complacent.
fiddlerwoaroof 7y ago
The issue is that an alternate service can only grow in the gaps if it has a viable business model: so far, monetizing internet services for the general public without advertising and tracking is a mostly-unsolved problem, despite interesting efforts like Brave.
- jlarocco 7y ago
  > monetizing internet services for the general public without advertising and tracking is a mostly-unsolved problem I feel like that's not a real problem. Or, maybe only a problem for services that care more about having a ton of users than being profitable and sustainable. There are quite a few services (SmugMug, Vimeo, NetFlix, etc.) that charge money, don't have advertisements, and are doing just fine. It's weird that so many web companies decide to go the sleazy advertisement/tracking/malware route rather than just charge money for the services they provide.
  - hombre_fatal 7y ago
    > It's weird that so many web companies decide to go the sleazy advertisement/tracking/malware route rather than just charge money for the services they provide. You will find very quickly how reluctant people are to pay for anything despite a few cultural-phenomenon-level exceptions like Netflix. I'm amazed how many people, like my own coworkers making $100k+, listen to Spotify all day every day yet will endure advertisement after advertisement in their stream of music instead of paying $10/month. If someone isn't even going to pay for Spotify despite it being a central part of their day to day experience, GG to your little service. I think advertising has played a major hand in shepherding us into this position that divorced us from the idea of paying for content we enjoy. There is going to have to be a major cultural change to bring us back into a healthy relationship with content. One common response to this is "well, maybe everyone should be hobbyists again making content for free," but surely we can find a better middleground than structuring things such that we depend on people toiling away in their freetime to produce the content we happen to want. For example, I'd rather my favorite content providers be able to feed themselves working on this content. We both benefit: I get to enjoy more content. Depending on hobby work doesn't get us there.
    - jlarocco 7y ago
      > You will find very quickly how reluctant people are to pay for anything despite a few cultural-phenomenon-level exceptions like Netflix. That's absolutely not true, though. People buy stuff all the time. Clothing, shoes, sporting goods, dishes, food, housewares, books, DVDs, etc. The "freemium" approach Spotify takes is a poor example because they're not charging for their real service of music streaming, but instead to get rid of advertisements. They've moved their own goalposts, and the question isn't "Is streaming music worth $10 a month?" but "Is it worth $10 a month to get rid of this commercial?" If the options were "Pay $10 to stream music" or "Listen to nothing," the results might be a lot different. > One common response to this is "well, maybe everyone should be hobbyists again making content for free," but surely we can find a better middleground than structuring things such that we depend on people toiling away in their freetime to produce the content we happen to want. For example, I'd rather my favorite content providers be able to feed themselves working on this content. We both benefit: I get to enjoy more content. Depending on hobby work doesn't get us there. I'm not making that argument, and you're setting up a false dichotomy. There's no reason content creators need to use advertisements and can't charge for their content instead. It worked fine for music and movies for over a hundred years, and books have been using that model for hundreds of years before that.

Semaphor 7y ago

> Twitch does do this with its SureStream ads Are those special and only run for large streamers? I never see ads on twitch, but the biggest streamer I watch has under 300 viewers.

GlitchMr 7y ago
It's the streamer who decides when the ads should show (this is because those ads hide the stream, so they should be used when nothing is happening). If they never tell Twitch to show ads, SureStream ads won't appear.
- Semaphor 7y ago
  I watch at least one streamer who runs ads in her breaks, she is a partner. So does she have a to specifically select those surestream ads? Maybe they only show in certain geographic locations?

bscphil 7y ago

I've never seen an ad on Twitch with uBlock origin installed. If this technology can't bypass ad blockers, why is there a difference?

plopz 7y ago
I don't think uBlock can or does block it, here's the issue that tracks the research into it: https://github.com/uBlockOrigin/uAssets/issues/5184 https://github.com/uBlockOrigin/uAssets/issues/5184 as well as an attempt to block them here: https://github.com/instance01/Twitch-HLS-AdBlock https://github.com/instance01/Twitch-HLS-AdBlock You may be ad-free for another reason such as a grandfathered twitch prime that will expire when it next renews, twitch turbo, or a subscription to a channel that opts-in to the ad-free sub benefit. You might also just be in a region or demographic where ads aren't being bought, so you wouldn't get any then.
- bscphil 7y ago
  Maybe uMatrix is blocking them somehow? I've never seen an ad, even on channels I don't follow or subscribe to. My rulesets are very strict, but you're right, if they really come through the video stream I don't know how I'm blocking it.
  - JaRail 7y ago
    Maybe you buy a lot of subscriptions and currency? I bet they avoid annoying their most profitable users. While it might have been coincidental, I never got ads until I unsubbed from the vast majority of streamers I follow. Same for other things like gifted subs. I used to receive a ton of gifted subs until I started lowering my sub count. They are obsessed with performance metrics. Big spenders have a very different experience. Now, whenever I get an ad, I immediately close twitch and find something on YT/Mixer to watch. I'm training their algorithms to leave me alone.
    - cehrlich 7y ago
      I get no ads on Twitch, and I currently don’t have Twitch Prime or any subscriptions. I’ve spent maybe 50 bucks on Twitch in the 3-4 year lifespan of my account. I’m running Vivaldi (which uses Chromium) with uBlock Origin, Ghostery (I know), and HTTPS Everywhere, on MacOS. I get ads when I use Twitch, with the same account, on a stock installation of Chrome (which I use as my backup browser for when I don’t want to figure out which extension is breaking a website). So it’s not related to my account, location, etc.

pingyong 7y ago

Twitch is running two kinds of ads, one type is "normal" and can be blocked by ublock, the other one is weird - it's definitely not just spliced into the video stream either, as far as I remember (I have Amazon Prime so I don't see ads), but ublock also wasn't able to block it. However, I would argue that it is not actually worse for several reasons. For one, the streamer decides exactly when and how to play ads - so if the ad timing bothers you, you're going to start watching someone else, which in turn creates an incentive to keep streams ad-free or at least run ads at specific times. The second reason is that the usage pattern of Twitch is different. I go to twitch (if it's a livestream) to actually watch the content, whereas I use YouTube in many cases like I would use an article, skipping through videos and back and forth looking for a specific part or specific information, and if the information isn't there quickly trying the next video. This workflow gets completely destroyed by ads. To the point where if YouTube would somehow force me to watch ads, I would simply stop using it except for the 2-3 weekly videos I actually plan to watch beforehand.

plopz 7y ago
I don't think Twitch Prime has the ad-free benefit anymore, they moved that into Twitch Turbo. The ads are also definitely stitched into the HLS playlist as segments, so even if you were to block them you would see a black screen for the duration of the ad, although Twitch does seem to be doing something where if a segment fails to load it tries to load the next one a few seconds later, so you might only see the black screen for 5s or so.

everdrive 7y ago

>Twitch also removed the ad-free benefit from twitch prime. This seems standard: acquire users, then make the service worse for users. (and better for shareholders and/or advertisers)

lotsofpulp 7y ago
Until people stop patronizing businesses that do that, and choose to patronizes businesses that don't do that, things will not change.
- everdrive 7y ago
  It's hard to know until they perform the bait and switch. It's certainly not the only reason that brand loyalty is dead, but it's one that's often on my mind. I don't have any confidence that my trust in a brand will mean anything in the long term. A new service exists? Well, it might be nice right now, but if I let myself rely on it the service will become slightly worse over the years.