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Culdesac: Car-free neighborhood built from scratch in Tempe
- andrewfromx 7y agomentioned yesterday in https://www.wsj.com/articles/new-arizona-development-bans-residents-from-bringing-cars-11574164801 https://www.wsj.com/articles/new-arizona-development-bans-re... and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21578165 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21578165
- BlameKaneda 7y agoTwo things: 1. Here's some sample temperature data for Tempe: https://www.usclimatedata.com/climate/tempe/arizona/united-states/usaz0233 https://www.usclimatedata.com/climate/tempe/arizona/united-s... If I leave my house in 90+ degree heat to go somewhere that's 10+ minutes away, I'd much rather be in an air conditioned car. With that being said, I could probably adjust to the heat and would be fine. 2. How would I travel from Tempe to the outside? Would I walk to a location where my car's stored (e.g. outside Tempe) or would I take public transportation?
- disillusioned 7y agoThis is... ambitious. Very ambitious. Tempe is not a pedestrian mecca. And while it's nice that they're planning on bringing in some retail and grocery and entertainment options into the community itself, people obviously want variety and light rail only gets you so far here. They're apparently intending to supplement this with car sharing spaces, which might help, and if you _work_ along light rail, this might be doable. They also mention they'll still have parking spaces for guests and such, so that means, ostensibly, they'll need to police them? Or just because they're not reserving spaces for residents, the demand will always outstrip the supply. Either way, while I agree that transitioning away from dependence on individual automobiles is a noble effort, this concept has its work cut out for itself here. That being said, I have several friends who go car-free here, so...
- jessriedel 7y agoWhat's wrong with just charging market rate for parking and road usage, i.e., just enough to so that there's always a few free parking spots and traffic flows at capacity?
- novok 7y agoThat involves city law, and it's political suicide to do it everywhere, so it doesn't happen. You need bootstrap efforts like this so people can know what the alternative is like.
- TulliusCicero 7y agoWhy would it involve city law to charge market rate for parking at this particular development?
- novok 7y agoNot at the particular development, but everywhere in the city, which is what I think he was implying. Imagine that the city started charging for the 'free parking' everywhere, either through permit schemes or parking meters, created photo enforced no stop tolling for major highways and busy commuting corridors and reduced property taxes w/ low income exemptions for the new driving fees. You would get a revolt even with the tax reductions. Small localized new greenfield experiments like this is not political suicide for a city to approve.
- jessriedel 7y ago> Not at the particular development, but everywhere in the city, which is what I think he was implying. That's not what I was implying.
- jessriedel 7y agoI believe this neighborhood has already received special exemption from the city to not build normally-required parking with new apartment buildings. Logically, parking prices and road-usage pricing can be hyperlocal, so it seems very feasible to just use it in this specific neighborhood.
- kybernetikos 7y agoThe way it's done in Vauban in Germany is that there are big quads with cycle paths around them and then outside the main body of the development there is a multistorey car park that residents can rent a space in. There are also popular car rental services. This means that if you need a car you can have one at extra cost and you can't normally bring it right to your building. It's a fantastic place to live.
- phnofive 7y agoA more terse mission statement from a linked job posting: “Culdesac's mission is to build cities for people, not cars. We're the first post-car real estate developer, and our goal is to build the first car-free city in the US. We're starting with the first car-free neighborhood built from scratch - that's Culdesac Tempe, a 1000-person neighborhood that opens Fall 2020.” So, like an apartment building, but horizontal?
- seltzered_ 7y agoTo get a rough comparison in context, a co-housing development in a suburban area (a mix of three-story flats, townhomes, and a common house) ranges from 9-44 households (so 50-80 peopl) over 2-4 acres arranged in a more cul-de-sac feel (buildings/etc center around a common walking area). So, my first take on this is like having ~10 cohousing communities + some businesses From another article: https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe/2019/11/19/culdesac-tempe-apartment-complex-wont-offer-residential-parking/4191470002/ https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe/2019/11/19/... : "which will be on 16 acres near Apache Boulevard and River Road" ...okay, so roughly in line with what I was thinking, though even more dense. https://goo.gl/maps/yDu9Zt96GKAi4KfR8 https://goo.gl/maps/yDu9Zt96GKAi4KfR8 is the location. Judging from the satellite view it looks like it'll be spread across the four areas around that block (with some of the old existing structures getting torn down). If you've never visited Tempe, there's been a lot of recent new downtown development ~3 miles west of this location. "The project falls within one of Tempe's opportunity zones, which could allow investors to take advantage of federal tax breaks." ...Interesting, the deadline for these projects (i.e. for investors to fund them and get a capital gains deduction) to get funding into a QOF-registered LLC working in a Qualified Opportunity Zone is 12-31-2019 from my understanding, so that's why it's happening now. "An apartment development with no parking for its expected 1,000 residents..." This is where I'm a bit questioning on whether this will really be a place one wants to live in over the long run. It seems like solely a large distributed apartment complex rather than a community/neighborhood with stakeholdership.
- phnofive 7y agoMaybe a people mover or a monorail, since an elevator won’t be practical :)
- eddieh 7y agoI sold my car years ago and it is one of the most liberating things I've ever done. Yes, I live in a posh metropolitan area that makes it unnecessary to own a car and yes my housing is a bit more expensive, but I'm happier and have way more free time. But I have to say, Tempe isn't a place I'd want to walk around most months of the year, so unless this is high-rises, low-rises, skybridges, and tunnels, no way would I be on onboard.
- anderspitman 7y agoBuying a car after not having one the year I lived in San Francisco was one of the most liberating things I've ever done.
- mixmastamyk 7y agoYou don’t own a car, a car owns you.
- slimsag 7y agoThe title and website headline are misleading, this isn't going to be car-free, it's going to be _no privately owned cars_. > We’re bringing together services like ridesharing, bikes and scooters, and same-day grocery delivery, so zero private cars means zero hassle. Here's why this matters from someone who lives here: 4 months out of the year Tempe's average temperature is above 99F. This means one of the following: 1. Residents will heavily use ride sharing and delivery during the summer, just "in place of" owning a car. 2. Culdesac will install a ridiculous amount of outdoor cooling for its residents, one might imagine this will require a fair amount of water. Don't get me wrong, this is a cool idea, but is Tempe the right place to do it? There are many options like semi-underground homes that could have been trialed here which would have fit the local climate; but they aren't doing that. Seems like they are trying to create a one-size-fits-all solution which IMO will not work outside of California.
- widowlark 7y agoProbably not - I suspect it's only there because Arizona has a storied history of planned communities
- AlotOfReading 7y agoYou don't want to be building anything underground in Tempe. There's a nasty layer of natural concrete called Caliche about a meter below the surface in much of the area. Archaeologists hate the stuff because it's so expensive and time consuming to dig through. The local indigenous people have been building sustainable apartment blocks called pueblos for a long time though. They're surprisingly nice during the summer (approx. 80F inside), even without AC.
- kitten_mittens_ 7y agoCaliche is very real even up in Idaho. There’s a local superstition about breaking through a 30cm layer to be able to have a tree grow successfully.
- noobermin 7y agoNot quite 99F (which is like 37C) but Singapore is VERY humid compared year round (as opposed to 4 months) of ~90 F (32 C). On many days I've seen "feels like 39 C" on google weather. Despite all that, car ownership is 12 per 100 people. People rely heavily on public transit, which is air conditioned (AC seems to be their sin, but it's definitely more efficient than AC in every car on top of burning gas to get it to move around). I think as you allow as a possibility in the end of your reply, it's not like it can't work, but non-ebikes and scooters might become a bit much for some people unless there's copious cover.
- BrianHenryIE 7y agoPeople underestimate their ability to live car-free. I have never learned to drive (35). As a California resident, I've only been in a car twice in the past three months. From January through April, I wasn't in a car whatsoever for 3.5 months. ~"The only problems cars solve are problems cars cause."
- blhack 7y agoIn what city?
- BrianHenryIE 7y agoIn Sacramento. ~5 mile commute to work. Occasionally I ride 20 miles each way. I rarely use public transport, though I lived in SF for ~6 months and used it a lot, along with my bike.
- kungtotte 7y agoPeople also overestimate other people's ability to live car free. I have 40 kilometers to work and bus density here is never more than once an hour. If I want to be at work on time I have to leave on the last bus the day before work, or I'd have to be late every morning. Even in that case of leaving the same day and accepting being late to work I'd be away from home for 14 hours at minimum. I have 10 kilometres to the nearest grocery store, and like I said bus density is not great. Even if I planned to do all my shopping on days of I'd be away from home for three hours at minimum, instead of a round-trip time of around an hour by car. That's just for easily planned daily things. Doctor, dentist, bank, etc? Forget about it. Not everyone lives in a place where being car-free is an easy choice.
- carlob 7y agoBut don't you think that living in a place that requires you to commute for so long is a situation you would not be in to begin with if cars were not an option? And I don't mean it just as a personal choice but as a urban planning strategy. It seems to me a bit of a chicken and egg problem.
- wiradikusuma 7y agoIs there any photos? I'm curious how they design it.
- ranDOMscripts 7y agoAKA off campus dorms. This isn't targeting the urban professional, it's for those who want to continue the dormie lifestyle. One of the biggest universities in the country is just a couple stops away on the light rail.
- rblatz 7y agoBingo, when I first moved out here I lived a couple blocks west of this place. It was 70% college kids. They also have a massive park and ride garage there, so I think I know where all those car free people will stash their cars.
- ghaff 7y agoWhich says nothing bout car-less lifestyles. I went to grad school in a smallish town in a mostly (upscale-ish) rural area. I was mostly fine without a car. I lived mostly on-campus. I had friends with cars. Activities were mostly structured around the idea that students wouldn't have cars. Etc. But, if I'm living/working there, I probably have to drive to my job, for far greater access to stores, to outdoor activities, to visit friends who are more spread out, etc. Sure, you can sometimes extend a college lifestyle for a few years but, for most people, that doesn't really work long term.
- itronitron 7y agoshould be nominated for a PWOTY, Pretentious Website of the Year award
- product50 7y agoCar free often means family free. See that there are no kids in their illustrations but 2 dogs and a bunch of young people? People need to wake up to the reality that kids demand cars. How will school pick up and drop offs work? How will you take your kid to lessons? What about that play date you setup? What about going to school at your kids school for an early pickup 4p from office? You can make it work without cars if you are fit, are lucky to have your office and kids' school in the city near to each other - but often "time" is a critical factor and you need the flexibility that a car offers.
- ehnto 7y ago> People need to wake up to the reality that kids demand cars. That is ludicrous. We've only had cars for a hundred years. The fact that it's difficult is BECAUSE we built cities around cars. Schools normally have districts so that they're nearby to the kids, if your kids school is in another suburb then frankly that's your poor planning. If you set up play dates with kids two 'burbs away, again, why did you do that? Places like Japan have no issues with no or low car families, the kids take public transport, walk, or take their bikes. You can ride your bike with them or join them for the train ride if you want to make sure they're safe, but the idea that kids need to be transported around in cars is ludicrous. > but often "time" is a critical factor and you need the flexibility that a car offers. Public transport and biking is often faster than cars in denser car centric cities, and good public transport is on time so you can plan accordingly. Not all cities have good public transport, I get that, but that's the problem we need to solve. We've already tried cars, it's not working. The issue isn't that we need cars, it's that we need a better city built around moving people without cars. You're looking at the problem in the wrong direction.
- jdnenej 7y agoPeople in America live in such a bubble and just think that anything that doesn't work in America can't possibly work at all. A common post on HN goes along the lines "trains are shit and could never be seriously used. I took a train once and it was dirty and slow"
- Cougher 7y agoIf only someone could design some sort of self-balancing, two-wheeled scooter that people could use to get around, entire cities could be designed without cars!
- Jamwinner 7y agoI know, like a bike with a motor and forks with rake that promote autobalance... wait, we just reinvented scooters and motorcycles.
- everyone 7y ago"We’ve pulled out the parking lots to make room for acres of greenspace, friendly courtyards" Having the stuff they're talking about is commonplace in some countries (eg. Netherlands, Denmark).. but for the services, trains etc. to work, the whole urban area needs the right (high enough) density. I'd like to see a plan of this.. The quoted sentence does not inspire confidence in me. Also, just for example Amsterdam is uniformly medium density until you reach the edge of the city where it immediately turns to farmland. There is no useless low density suburban sprawl, in which services cannot function (because there would not be enough people living in its catchment area)
- frereubu 7y agoSlightly OT - it has always amused me that “cul-de-sac”, commonly used in the UK to denote a street with a dead end, literally translates from the French as “arse of bag”, which I guess is accurate in terms of its shape, but I’m sure many people think of it as a rather fancy name because it’s French without knowing the meaning.
- dekken_ 7y agoCul is almost a pejorative for sex in France so it means sex in a bag
- maximegarcia 7y agoNo, cul means ass. No, cul de sac means dead end (as in a road that ends)
- dekken_ 7y agoYes, ass can mean sex > I got some ass last night Try going on Tinder in Paris. *Edit: I never stated it didn't also mean "dead end"
- jmpman 7y agoAs a resident of Phoenix, I can see this working 9 months out of the year. But, June can reach 120f, and I’m cursing just by the time I walk from the grocery story through the parking lot to my car. July and August have random monsoons which aren’t navigable on scooter or bike. If you added golf cart paths, the community becomes much more attractive. I’d take a golf cart 1/4 mile to an air conditioned bus stop/ride share stand. Notice that this arrangement is quite unlivable for people with babies. Walking a child in a stroller 1/4 mile in 120f, to meet a ride share.... with what car seat? It would take any affluent new parents just a month before they nope’d out of that.
- chrisseaton 7y agoWhy are people living there if they can't even step outside an air-conditioned environment for two minutes? Might as well be living on the moon in a pod at that point.
- learc83 7y agoBecause that's only a few months out of the year, and even during that time it's better at night. Also people live in cities up north that are much closer to living on the moon in a pod during the winter months. People live near jobs, family, housing and community regardless of how pleasant the weather is.
- nkrisc 7y agoBecause we have technology to make it tolerable.
- mattmar96 7y agoAs someone who used to live in the Phoenix climate, and now lives in one of the furthest north cities in the US: The middle of winter here is much more 'moon-like' than the middle of summer ever was in Phoenix. I basically have to don a space suit to go out in below 0 weather!
- nkrisc 7y ago
- vhodges 7y agoPerhaps of some relevance: http://www.fusedgrid.ca/fusedgrid.php http://www.fusedgrid.ca/fusedgrid.php
- notatoad 7y agoIs there any actual information about this neighbourhood available? The linked website seems to only be an email collection form, as far as i can tell