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USS Pueblo
- tych0 7y agoAnother interesting spy ship saga is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident
- OldFatCactus 7y agoI've seen this come up a lot recently. Antisemitic, alt-right grifters have been using this incident as some sort of dogwhistle
- core-questions 7y agoI've seen the word "grifter" come up a lot recently. Anti-white people have been using the fact that people point out uncomfortable moments in history as some sort of dogwhistle
- OldFatCactus 7y agoLooks like the whistle is working lol
- pc86 7y agoDogwhistle for what? I'm genuinely curious, I don't know what that could be used as a dogwhistle for.
- OldFatCactus 7y agoIf I'm being charitable, anti-Israel sentiment. The conspiracy theory is that Israel did it deliberately
- slg 7y agoThe Liberty is a common antisemitic talking point. It is an incident in which the Israeli military attacked and killed American troops. Both the deliberateness and the potential motive of the attack are unknown and unexplained. It doesn't take much for the conspiracy theorists to turn that into "Jews want to kill Americans".
- nyolfen 7y agothe idea is that it was a false flag attack to lure the US into intervening in the 6 day war on behalf of israel; its appeal to antisemites, sympathists of liberty sailors, american opponents of israel, or even just trolls should be pretty obvious
- catalogia 7y agoThe possibility of a false flag to start a war doesn't seem so outlandish when you consider the context of the era. Only a few years earlier you had the U.S. Department of Defense proposing plans to carry out terrorist attacks on American soil and blame the Cubans for it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods Another example from the same era was the second Gulf of Tonkin incident which lead to the Vietnam War. In the 2000's Robert McNamara finally admitted the second incident never happened.
- hannasanarion 7y agoAnd that makes it a dogwhistle how? The (((echo))) is a dogwhistle. "Globalists" is a dogwhistle. The USS Liberty incident is just another point on the miles-long list of war crimes committed by the Israeli military and pardoned by the American UNSC veto. The accusation of antisemitism whenever misbehavior from the Israeli government comes up is itself antisemitic because it presupposes that "the Republic of Israel" and "the Jews" are the same thing.
- slg 7y agoI didn't use the term dogwhistle. I didn't put forward any theory regarding what "actually" happened with the Liberty. I didn't accuse anyone of antisemitism. I am simply stating a fact that this is something that antisemitic people often point to as proof of the evilness and/or anti-American behavior of Jews. The actual facts of what happened are mostly irrelevant in regards to how the incident has been co-opted. >The accusation of antisemitism whenever misbehavior from the Israeli government comes up is itself antisemitic because it presupposes that "the Republic of Israel" and "the Jews" are the same thing. I believe this argument is pointless since people on all sides of this debate selectively draw and blur the line between Israel and Jews depending on what point they are trying to make.
- msla 7y agoIt was attacked by the Israelis, so it's used as a cause celebre by people who want to get people to question our support of Israel. This includes, but is not limited to, antisemites.
- PunksATawnyFill 7y ago“Dogwhistle?” English has plenty of words. Use some that convey something.
- 02thoeva 7y agoVisited this last year, remarkably good condition. The Koreans were very keen to point out the size of the armoury and guns on board the ship.
- openasocket 7y agoI suppose that's to be expected from the North Koreans, but it's rather funny, since the ship is actually very lightly armed. Wikipedia says it only has 2 M2 Brownings aboard, does the North Korean museum claim it was armed with more, or do they claim that's heavily armed?
- brianshaler 7y agoI think they emphasized the weaponry because the US billed it as the capture of an environmental research ship in international waters, while the DPRK preferred to position it as a thwarted military incursion into sovereign Korean waters.
- TurkishPoptart 7y agoYou visited North Korea?
- freehunter 7y agoBased on their spelling of “armoury” they don’t seem to be American. As far as I’m aware, the only country that forbids travel to NK is America.
- TurkishPoptart 7y agoI imagine the DPRK classifies all Americans and Europeans as simply "Western imperialist dogs", or something like that. The last thing I'd be worried about when planning a trip to Pyongyang is whether the US is cool with it. I would go to nearly any other country than go to North Korea. Just doesn't seem worth it. Wouldn't feel right putting my tourist $$$ directly in the pocket of the fascist Kim regime, for that.
- ruddct 7y agoHah, fun! Visited this a few years back. It's in great condition, particularly memorable things were the bullet holes (all highlighted in red paint) and the intro video[0], which is worth watching if only to experience the extremely distinct North Korean English accent. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95qtd2Mwnpg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95qtd2Mwnpg
- daveslash 7y agoHow were you able to visit it, honest question? As an American myself, I wouldn't dare set foot in that country. Was a visit there an easy experience? Would you go back?
- albroland 7y agoBefore the state department banned travel there, it was quite easy as a US passport holder. You apply through a tour company based in China who will handle the arrangements. You show up in Beijing, collect your visa booklet (they don't stamp your passport), and fly into Pyongyang.
- jackpirate 7y agoThere's a school called the Pyongyang University of Science and Technology (https://pust.co https://pust.co) that invites foreigners to come teach North Korean citizens. I spent 2 semesters teaching computer science at PUST and it was a wonderful experience. You really get to know the locals (both students and staff) much better than on a short tourist trip. Some highlights include teaching Dijkstra's algorithm by showing them google maps images of Pyongyang (which they hadn't seen from space before), talking about Snowden and how he used encryption to hide from the NSA, and having North Korean citizens contribute to open source machine learning projects (vowpal wabbit and mlpack). All the students I met with were also surprisingly well informed about both events in the US and American history. You also get to do as much touristy stuff as you'd like. Two highlights for me were, visiting the Pueblo and the subway system. As a former naval nuclear officer, it was quite surreal to visit these places. The subway system is one of the few places in the world that US nuclear weapons cannot effectively target because it is buried so far underground (>100m). You have to spend about 5 minutes riding the longest escalator I've ever seen to get from the surface to the trains. It's a daily reminder to North Korean citizens that they've been targeted by US nuclear weapons for decades. Educational exchanges have a long history of improving relations between countries, and so I'm a huge advocate for the PUST exchanges. Unfortunately, I had to stop going because President Trump no longer allows Americans to visit North Korea. If any non-Americans are interested in going, however, shoot me an email (mike@izbicki.me) and I'm happy to chat more with you about the experience.
- mc32 7y agoA foolhardy idea would be to surreptitiously go there while some other action is happening elsewhere and tug it out. Now, it’d be difficult to pull off and offers no upside and lots of downside, but it’d be very intrepid to pull off.
- nostrademons 7y agoMight be an interesting technology demonstration for robotics. Sail a robot submarine across the Pacific, surface in the Potong River, release a few drones to cut the mooring lines and slip a tow onto it, and tow it out to international waters. They shoot at you? Honey badger don't care, there ain't no people there.
- walshemj 7y agoMM a high tech cutting out - in the old day they used ships boats and sailors and marines to do that
- pantalaimon 7y agoBut what do you want to do with a 75 year old boat?
- mc32 7y agoThe boat? Not much. It’s the act that offers value.
- chimeracoder 7y ago> The boat? Not much. It’s the act that offers value. The value of invading another sovereign nation's territory in order to repatriate some hunk object that has purely symbolic value? Hardly seems worth the cost and massive fallout that would ensure.
- mc32 7y agoFirst it’s not an invasion, it’s an incursion. Like I said upthread, it’s got lots of downside but little upside. But the upside would be quite triumphant.
- slg 7y ago>the U.S. government has publicly stated on several occasions that the return of the still commissioned Navy vessel is a priority Is this just to save face or is there some other reason we would want the ship back?
- BitwiseFool 7y agoI imagine it's an esprit de corps goal related to the 'no man left behind' sentiment in the armed forces.
- SoftwareMaven 7y agoShips lost at sea are also still commissioned and patrolling. I suspect it is part of naval culture.
- parliament32 7y ago>While thousands of American prisoners of war were awarded medals, the crew members of Pueblo did not receive them. Instead, they were classified as "detainees". It was not until Congress passed a law overturning this decision that the medals were awarded; the crew finally received the medals at San Diego in May 1990. Any thoughts on why this was so? Why would the crew not be classified PoWs? Did the US not want to admit they were in a war with PRK or what?
- pvg 7y agoThere was considerable controversy surrounding the events and the actions of the crew and leadership. There was a Navy court of inquiry, conflicting accusations of dereliction of duty, cover-ups, whitewashing, official reprimands, etc. Google up 'Pueblo court of inquiry' but keep in mind it's a massive, contentious and inconclusive clickhole.
- tartoran 7y agoI think is because they were captured, supposedly without much fight and failed to destroy sensitive information on the ship. NKs and soviets reverse engineered the communication system and were able to listen on to us communications for a while till the said systems were upgraded.. That being said, I think it's wrong to to not classify the crew as POW. They were tortured and starved...
- NedIsakoff 7y agoI went there with YPT last year. Highly recommended: https://www.youngpioneertours.com/ https://www.youngpioneertours.com/
- dkarp 7y agoGoogle Maps: https://www.google.com/maps/place/USS+Pueblo/@39.0403653,125.7395677,225m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m12!1m6!3m5!1s0x357e1b5b97dd3049:0x7e4295d5012fa42a!2sUSS+Pueblo!8m2!3d39.0404785!4d125.739788!3m4!1s0x357e1b5b97dd3049:0x7e4295d5012fa42a!8m2!3d39.0404785!4d125.739788 https://www.google.com/maps/place/USS+Pueblo/@39.0403653,125...
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- peeters 7y agoAs interesting as the vessel is the noncompliance of the crew in being used as propaganda: > This treatment turned worse when the North Koreans realized that crewmen were secretly giving them "the finger" in staged propaganda photos. and > Eventually the North Koreans threatened to execute his men in front of him, and Bucher relented and agreed to "confess to his and the crew's transgression." Bucher wrote the confession since a "confession" by definition needed to be written by the confessor himself. They verified the meaning of what he wrote, but failed to catch the pun when he said "We paean the DPRK [North Korea]. We paean their great leader Kim Il Sung". (Bucher pronounced "paean" as "pee on.") I wasn't even familiar with the verb "paean", brilliant of the commander to know that non-native speakers wouldn't catch on to the idiosynchronies of using an uncommon homophone as an insult.
- ceejayoz 7y agoI find tales of POWs resisting where they can fascinating. One of my favourites is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Hegdahl https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Hegdahl: He got blown overboard by a gun turret's blast, a story which his interrogators found so unbelievable they assumed he was an idiot and gave him free run of the POW camp, which he used to gather intel and sabotage vehicles.
- Warwick-P 7y agoI have been on the USS Pueblo. When I was in North Korea, this was one of the many military monuments that foreign visitors were required to tour when visiting the country. The guides who took us on this boat made sure to emphasize how this was an armed warship that was committing an act of international aggression and violating a sovereign nation's borders, and which was captured by an heroic North Korean military mission. A couple of extra photos: https://imgur.com/a/8DDBrz1 https://imgur.com/a/8DDBrz1
- nodesocket 7y agoWhat nationality are you and when did you visit N. Korea?
- Warwick-P 7y agoI visited in 2011 as a South African citizen. I'm now an American citizen.
- inputError 7y agoYour guide was smokin' hot.
- baud147258 7y agoI guess NK is selecting their guides/minders to show visitors NK in the best possible light.
- brianshaler 7y agoAside from South Korea, which may not be prohibited, I don't think there were any nationalities that couldn't visit, until a Sept 2017 US State Department travel ban on US citizens. The company I went with in 2013 is respecting the ban, but I'm not sure if or how it would actually be enforced.
- chimi 7y agoI always wonder about claims like this where one nation says a ship was within their borders and the other nation says it was in international waters. This USS Pueblo is one incident. Israel attacked a Turkish ship in international waters. Iran attacked oil tankers in international waters. All these incidents ... I can't help but think we never grow up as human beings all the way until becoming international super powers. It's like a geopolitical "I'm not touching you." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgXDYiHhp5Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgXDYiHhp5Y It's bullying behavior. It's an aggressive provocation. Will we ever grow up?
- ocdtrekkie 7y agoMy favorite in particular in this line of "geopolitical I'm not touching you" is what we call "freedom of navigation exercises". The US runs through the South China Sea on them all the time. Basically, China says it's their territory, the US says it is international waters. And so we "prove" it by regularly traveling through it with US warships for no other purpose then to prove we can.
- x220 7y agoYup. How else can you stop Chinese colonialism?
- monocasa 7y agoUS neo-colonialism is your answer?
- catalogia 7y agoPerhaps changing the Japanese constitution and letting them rebuilt their navy would be a better answer, though I don't expect that to happen.
- x220 7y agoAfter taking a look at the Hong Kong protests, I'll gladly take American colonialism over China's. And so, apparently, would the people of Hong Kong.
- pmjordan 7y agoAnother interesting incident, this one involving a North Korean spy ship: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Amami-Ōshima https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Amami-Ōshima The wreckage is worth a visit if you find yourself in Tokyo with a day to spare for a trip to Yokohama. (Half a day will do easily if that's literally all you go to Yokohama for, but you can spend a pleasant few hours there, so may as well make a day of it.)
- RolloTom 7y agoTen years ago two guys managed to enter in Noth Korea by train from Russia spending 36 hours without a guide. https://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.com/ https://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.com/ They obviously went to see the USS Pueblo as well... It's kind of a long read, but very interesting, imho.
- nyolfen 7y agoa nice video of the trip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1mzXFAzUjQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1mzXFAzUjQ
- everyone 7y agoThat would make a good movie.
- ruchir_21hj 7y agoThat's exactly what I was thinking. This would make a great movie/book.
- dredmorbius 7y agoEdward R. Murphy (XO), personal history of the incident: https://invidio.us/watch?v=FQg6yJnW6tQ https://invidio.us/watch?v=FQg6yJnW6tQ
- elizabeth123 7y agobecause according to https://macanbet.co/ https://macanbet.co/, the US is one of the largest countries in the world