5 ms·

I actually enjoy anti-hero series such as "The Boys" which runs counter to the MCU

RHSeeger 7y ago
I enjoyed The Boys too. That being said, part of why I watch super movies/shows is to enjoy the escape, to see people being ... more. I can see people being assholes anywhere, so a story that focuses around that needs to be significantly better than one that doesn't for me to enjoy it.
PopeDotNinja 7y ago
I enjoyed that show quite a bit. It's fun to see supers w/ both light & dark sides.
- protomyth 7y ago
  I haven't watched the show, but as I remember it, the light side was pretty much absent from the comics. I assume they heavily deviated from the comics? I'll know when its gone too far when they make "Crossed" into a TV series.
- RHSeeger 7y ago
  If you enjoyed The Karate Kid when you were younger, I would recommend Cobra Kai. It's a very good expression of the idea that everyone is the hero of their own story; everyone thinks they're the good guy, and yet everyone is a jerk in their own special way.
jimbokun 7y ago
I think this is more the kind of thing Moore is criticizing. Is "The Boys" really deep and insightful look at human nature, or just continuing to indulge in material meant for kids with more violence and nudity to make you feel more grown up while watching it? I love comic books by the way. But it's meant as simple escapist pleasure where you know at the end the good guys win. Making them anti-heroes and upping the "transgressive" content while keeping all hte other tropes doesn't automatically make it deep art.
- rolltiide 7y ago
  Was “the boys” meant to be any of those things? I found it entertaining and well done, who cares about categorizing the people in tights If anything it is a satire on the trope and that’s it I like the anti-hero in tights trope, it makes them more grounded The new recruit going through with sexual harassment while being praised by her family and fans for being recruited? Wanting to be mad but also being a sexual being? There is no grand lesson just a story, one relatable to a broadening audience
- Forge36 7y ago
  I watched it just after reading "7 habits of highly effective people". The entire time I watched I was critiquing the characters 1. They all lied, all the time, in different ways 2. There is zero trust between anyone. 3. I don't recall any female nudity (perhaps I've become more numb to it?) There was male nudity. 4. Even the "good guys" are terrible people. No one likes them, they are just as big of jerks as the "Heros". Main Character has PTSD from Episode One and it only gets worse (due to his own choices and actions). It goes to the opposite extreme running the a basic premise of "everyone is a person", everyone has faults, everyone has needs. The "best moral character" is perhaps Starlight, and she's abused, co-dependent on her mother, and struggling to come to terms with her new job requirements asking her to lie and confronting childhood beliefs and cultures (homophobia, premarital sex). In the show thus far: no one has dealt with their baggage. No one's trying to in a health way (The Deep might be an exception as he's seen talking with a Therapist, but he's far from "good"). Without having read the comics: I'm not sure the "good" guys win. The protagonist wins. The "factually right" guy wins. But even that has yet to happen in the show.
jrochkind1 7y ago
Something that continues to haunt my dreams on the popularity of "anti-heroes" kind of stuff (in particular the Punisher) and some scary cultural implications and resonances is this amazing graphic essay... https://popula.com/2019/02/24/about-face/ https://popula.com/2019/02/24/about-face/ It is terrifying. And definitely related to the cultural meanings of the current obsession with superheroes of various sorts that Moore is talking about.
- altoidaltoid 7y ago
  Wow. Thank you for linking to this. As an army brat I can relate to the transitions in the post-Vietnam Army to first Gulf War ( when dad finished his 20 ). He always felt that we should have kept some level of conscription, if only to ensure that folks from all walks of life ( including our political leaders ) were exposed and could influence military culture.
- thfuran 7y ago
  That's a pile of extremely poorly-supported claims strung together with only the occasional, vague gesture in the direction of facts.
arkh 7y ago
If you have not read it and don't mind reading, I'd like to direct you to Worm: https://parahumans.wordpress.com/ https://parahumans.wordpress.com/ People with powers have their behavior explained, the good guys are far from perfect. The world is a dark place, dead protagonists stay dead (and it's not the worse which can happen) and the cause of the powers is explained. This kind of take on superheroes make the Marvel and DC universes bland.
- fullstop 7y ago
  I'm about 72% of the way through so far, and I'm really digging it. I was a bad person and converted it to ePub so that I could read it on my Kindle. I should send Wildbow some love with Paypal, given the sheer number of hours of entertainment I've received so far.
- asokoloski 7y ago
  Seconded! Also, the criticism in this article about lack of diversity doesn't apply very much to Worm (and its sequel, Ward). To give some examples -- one of the protagonists of Ward is gay, as are two of the antagonists. One of the protagonists is trans. One is black. Two are Hispanic. One of the side characters (a hero) is a recovering homophobe. Another side character is a white supremacist who's trying to turn over a new leaf. One of the main villain groups in Worm are white supremacists -- and one of the heroes is a kid who leaves that life. Two of the protagonist villains (brother and sister) are black. There's a lesbian couple -- one a hero, one a rogue/villain. There's a character who I think would be called genderqueer? One of the protagonists is asexual. It sounds like a lot, but there's a huge cast of characters, and it never felt tacked-on to me. And so much of the story is about really, really traumatic stuff. It's really dark, sometimes horrifying, sometimes tragic, sometimes awesome, and overall really gripping. It's sort of ruined mainstream superhero media for me -- it seems so flat and predictable in comparison. Highly recommended.
  - fullstop 7y ago
    One half of the lesbian couple is of Arab descent as well. That part of her, as far as I have read, is only important with respect to her backstory / trigger event and helps the reader understand her behavior and actions better.

I enjoyed The Boys too. That being said, part of why I watch super movies/shows is to enjoy the escape, to see people being ... more. I can see people being assholes anywhere, so a story that focuses around that needs to be significantly better than one that doesn't for me to enjoy it.

PopeDotNinja 7y ago

I enjoyed that show quite a bit. It's fun to see supers w/ both light & dark sides.

protomyth 7y ago
I haven't watched the show, but as I remember it, the light side was pretty much absent from the comics. I assume they heavily deviated from the comics? I'll know when its gone too far when they make "Crossed" into a TV series.
RHSeeger 7y ago
If you enjoyed The Karate Kid when you were younger, I would recommend Cobra Kai. It's a very good expression of the idea that everyone is the hero of their own story; everyone thinks they're the good guy, and yet everyone is a jerk in their own special way.

jimbokun 7y ago

I think this is more the kind of thing Moore is criticizing. Is "The Boys" really deep and insightful look at human nature, or just continuing to indulge in material meant for kids with more violence and nudity to make you feel more grown up while watching it? I love comic books by the way. But it's meant as simple escapist pleasure where you know at the end the good guys win. Making them anti-heroes and upping the "transgressive" content while keeping all hte other tropes doesn't automatically make it deep art.

rolltiide 7y ago
Was “the boys” meant to be any of those things? I found it entertaining and well done, who cares about categorizing the people in tights If anything it is a satire on the trope and that’s it I like the anti-hero in tights trope, it makes them more grounded The new recruit going through with sexual harassment while being praised by her family and fans for being recruited? Wanting to be mad but also being a sexual being? There is no grand lesson just a story, one relatable to a broadening audience
Forge36 7y ago
I watched it just after reading "7 habits of highly effective people". The entire time I watched I was critiquing the characters 1. They all lied, all the time, in different ways 2. There is zero trust between anyone. 3. I don't recall any female nudity (perhaps I've become more numb to it?) There was male nudity. 4. Even the "good guys" are terrible people. No one likes them, they are just as big of jerks as the "Heros". Main Character has PTSD from Episode One and it only gets worse (due to his own choices and actions). It goes to the opposite extreme running the a basic premise of "everyone is a person", everyone has faults, everyone has needs. The "best moral character" is perhaps Starlight, and she's abused, co-dependent on her mother, and struggling to come to terms with her new job requirements asking her to lie and confronting childhood beliefs and cultures (homophobia, premarital sex). In the show thus far: no one has dealt with their baggage. No one's trying to in a health way (The Deep might be an exception as he's seen talking with a Therapist, but he's far from "good"). Without having read the comics: I'm not sure the "good" guys win. The protagonist wins. The "factually right" guy wins. But even that has yet to happen in the show.

jrochkind1 7y ago

Something that continues to haunt my dreams on the popularity of "anti-heroes" kind of stuff (in particular the Punisher) and some scary cultural implications and resonances is this amazing graphic essay... https://popula.com/2019/02/24/about-face/ https://popula.com/2019/02/24/about-face/ It is terrifying. And definitely related to the cultural meanings of the current obsession with superheroes of various sorts that Moore is talking about.

altoidaltoid 7y ago
Wow. Thank you for linking to this. As an army brat I can relate to the transitions in the post-Vietnam Army to first Gulf War ( when dad finished his 20 ). He always felt that we should have kept some level of conscription, if only to ensure that folks from all walks of life ( including our political leaders ) were exposed and could influence military culture.
thfuran 7y ago
That's a pile of extremely poorly-supported claims strung together with only the occasional, vague gesture in the direction of facts.

arkh 7y ago

If you have not read it and don't mind reading, I'd like to direct you to Worm: https://parahumans.wordpress.com/ https://parahumans.wordpress.com/ People with powers have their behavior explained, the good guys are far from perfect. The world is a dark place, dead protagonists stay dead (and it's not the worse which can happen) and the cause of the powers is explained. This kind of take on superheroes make the Marvel and DC universes bland.

fullstop 7y ago
I'm about 72% of the way through so far, and I'm really digging it. I was a bad person and converted it to ePub so that I could read it on my Kindle. I should send Wildbow some love with Paypal, given the sheer number of hours of entertainment I've received so far.
asokoloski 7y ago
Seconded! Also, the criticism in this article about lack of diversity doesn't apply very much to Worm (and its sequel, Ward). To give some examples -- one of the protagonists of Ward is gay, as are two of the antagonists. One of the protagonists is trans. One is black. Two are Hispanic. One of the side characters (a hero) is a recovering homophobe. Another side character is a white supremacist who's trying to turn over a new leaf. One of the main villain groups in Worm are white supremacists -- and one of the heroes is a kid who leaves that life. Two of the protagonist villains (brother and sister) are black. There's a lesbian couple -- one a hero, one a rogue/villain. There's a character who I think would be called genderqueer? One of the protagonists is asexual. It sounds like a lot, but there's a huge cast of characters, and it never felt tacked-on to me. And so much of the story is about really, really traumatic stuff. It's really dark, sometimes horrifying, sometimes tragic, sometimes awesome, and overall really gripping. It's sort of ruined mainstream superhero media for me -- it seems so flat and predictable in comparison. Highly recommended.
- fullstop 7y ago
  One half of the lesbian couple is of Arab descent as well. That part of her, as far as I have read, is only important with respect to her backstory / trigger event and helps the reader understand her behavior and actions better.