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Lots of criticism here, fair enough, it’s very worrying to give non-transparent institutions this kind of power, not to mention the technical feasibility. But.

by Gatsky 7y ago

Lots of criticism here, fair enough, it’s very worrying to give non-transparent institutions this kind of power, not to mention the technical feasibility. But... what should be done about child pornography, then? The ability to disseminate it with impunity is a problem we can’t just pretend doesn’t exist. Using online platforms pedophiles can monetize and go full time professional in countries where children are easily exploited. Nobody is coming to save those kids.

pixelpoet 7y ago
If we're going to throw out anything and everything to win that unwinnable battle, first goes encryption, then cameras, then computers, and then finally all humans after puberty. Obviously there must be some reasonable limit, and making all encryption illegal (or just for civilians, and then shady stuff will start happening under govt and corporate encryption) is truly throwing the baby out with the bathwater, in that digital society can no longer function. We don't stop selling knives because some people get stabbed with them, they still sell AR-15s in America despite ridiculously frequent mass shootings, so I can't see where the logic is coming from for making encryption illegal.
- Gatsky 7y ago
  Yes I agree with you. But at the same time, I don’t feel comfortable knowing what is going on and just accepting that it is a cost of liberty. We are talking about the worst, most harmful most exploitative human behaviour that destroys lives. If we can’t introduce some nuance and proportionality here then well I think we are doomed. Guns aren’t a good example... I mean guns are regulated? There isn’t total liberty there.
  - soraminazuki 7y ago
    Well, encryption doesn't cause child exploitation, very much like how the air we (and criminals alike) breathe doesn't either. Limitations of police powers are there for a very good reason, and it's not like there wasn't much crime when they were introduced. I think it's short-sighted to give up our civil liberties because of crime.
jrockway 7y ago
> it’s very worrying to give non-transparent institutions this kind of power What power do they have? They issued a statement. Anyone can issue a statement. Here's jrockway's statement denouncing the color orange: it's bad. With the color orange in the wild, people will be confused about orange the color and orange the fruit! Wow it's bad! All this shows is that I'm a crackpot, not that I have too much power.
Nasrudith 7y ago
Your answer is in the monetization system and old fashioned police work and auditing. The financial transfers are already regulated and monitored. Investigate and trace and even if the other end is under absolutely no influence (unlikely given diplomatic clout and foreign aid). Investigators doing their job can still obtain a list of everyone who was party to paid remote molestation schemes. Of course the dirty secret is that 'for the children' is just a pretense. We can tell because their current actions show that they don't give a damn about the children or their welfare.
GoblinSlayer 7y ago
>The ability to disseminate it with impunity is a problem we can’t just pretend doesn’t exist. I don't think there's such ability. And why only distribution is a crime?
AdrianB1 7y ago
You are manipulating: if there is a problem and the solution that is proposed is excessive, rejecting the proposed solutions does not move the burden of finding a solutions on the people rejecting it. For example, I propose to stop everyone from breathing, it will stop pedophiles; if you don't agree, you have to provide a solution for pedophilia. Not a logically sound argument, is it?
- Gatsky 7y ago
  I’m genuinely interested if anyone else feels uneasy about just leaving things the way they are, and if they have any thoughts about what could be done instead of compromising cryptographic integrity. Sorry if that came across as an attempt at manipulation, not my intention at all.
  - AdrianB1 7y ago
    It is not our responsibility to find a solution for pedophilia. For example, I am an IT manager, not a policeman and not a law maker. Yes, I would like to know a solution exists and it will be implemented like I would like to know there is a cure for cancer, but it is not my expertise to find it and I have no expectation that a discussion about encryption will find the solution for pedophilia.
clarry 7y ago
IMO trying to attack dissemination of CP is like trying to intercept bullets midair (perhaps even harder). There are countless ways to smuggle porn, just as there are countless ways to smuggle drugs. Drugs are harder, and yet they still can't prevent it. Maybe it's time to think of an alternative approach.
- Gatsky 7y ago
  OK, but what? That was my question.
SkyBelow 7y ago
Find a way to cure the actual problem in society. Even if you set up a magic filter that stops every single such image from being sent, you don't end up saving children. Instead, we should focus on solving that problem.

by Gatsky 7y ago

pixelpoet 7y ago

If we're going to throw out anything and everything to win that unwinnable battle, first goes encryption, then cameras, then computers, and then finally all humans after puberty. Obviously there must be some reasonable limit, and making all encryption illegal (or just for civilians, and then shady stuff will start happening under govt and corporate encryption) is truly throwing the baby out with the bathwater, in that digital society can no longer function. We don't stop selling knives because some people get stabbed with them, they still sell AR-15s in America despite ridiculously frequent mass shootings, so I can't see where the logic is coming from for making encryption illegal.

Gatsky 7y ago
Yes I agree with you. But at the same time, I don’t feel comfortable knowing what is going on and just accepting that it is a cost of liberty. We are talking about the worst, most harmful most exploitative human behaviour that destroys lives. If we can’t introduce some nuance and proportionality here then well I think we are doomed. Guns aren’t a good example... I mean guns are regulated? There isn’t total liberty there.
- soraminazuki 7y ago
  Well, encryption doesn't cause child exploitation, very much like how the air we (and criminals alike) breathe doesn't either. Limitations of police powers are there for a very good reason, and it's not like there wasn't much crime when they were introduced. I think it's short-sighted to give up our civil liberties because of crime.

jrockway 7y ago

> it’s very worrying to give non-transparent institutions this kind of power What power do they have? They issued a statement. Anyone can issue a statement. Here's jrockway's statement denouncing the color orange: it's bad. With the color orange in the wild, people will be confused about orange the color and orange the fruit! Wow it's bad! All this shows is that I'm a crackpot, not that I have too much power.

Nasrudith 7y ago

Your answer is in the monetization system and old fashioned police work and auditing. The financial transfers are already regulated and monitored. Investigate and trace and even if the other end is under absolutely no influence (unlikely given diplomatic clout and foreign aid). Investigators doing their job can still obtain a list of everyone who was party to paid remote molestation schemes. Of course the dirty secret is that 'for the children' is just a pretense. We can tell because their current actions show that they don't give a damn about the children or their welfare.

GoblinSlayer 7y ago

>The ability to disseminate it with impunity is a problem we can’t just pretend doesn’t exist. I don't think there's such ability. And why only distribution is a crime?

AdrianB1 7y ago

You are manipulating: if there is a problem and the solution that is proposed is excessive, rejecting the proposed solutions does not move the burden of finding a solutions on the people rejecting it. For example, I propose to stop everyone from breathing, it will stop pedophiles; if you don't agree, you have to provide a solution for pedophilia. Not a logically sound argument, is it?

Gatsky 7y ago
I’m genuinely interested if anyone else feels uneasy about just leaving things the way they are, and if they have any thoughts about what could be done instead of compromising cryptographic integrity. Sorry if that came across as an attempt at manipulation, not my intention at all.
- AdrianB1 7y ago
  It is not our responsibility to find a solution for pedophilia. For example, I am an IT manager, not a policeman and not a law maker. Yes, I would like to know a solution exists and it will be implemented like I would like to know there is a cure for cancer, but it is not my expertise to find it and I have no expectation that a discussion about encryption will find the solution for pedophilia.

clarry 7y ago

IMO trying to attack dissemination of CP is like trying to intercept bullets midair (perhaps even harder). There are countless ways to smuggle porn, just as there are countless ways to smuggle drugs. Drugs are harder, and yet they still can't prevent it. Maybe it's time to think of an alternative approach.

Gatsky 7y ago
OK, but what? That was my question.

SkyBelow 7y ago

Find a way to cure the actual problem in society. Even if you set up a magic filter that stops every single such image from being sent, you don't end up saving children. Instead, we should focus on solving that problem.