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Crinkle Crankle Wall
- doctor_m 7y agoIf only crinkle-crankle software were equally justifiable...
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- Xophmeister 7y agoIf we take the meaning of a "crinkle crankle structure" to be something like an "economically self-supporting structure", then it's justifiable by definition. The question then becomes: What, in the realm of software engineering, fits this description? Lisp, perhaps?
- arethuza 7y agoThis made me Google "crinkle crankle ha-ha" - unfortunately I could not find any references to such a wall existing.
- pure-awesome 7y agoThis article references both: https://davidburr.co.uk/rooftops/winter18/files/basic-html/page74.html https://davidburr.co.uk/rooftops/winter18/files/basic-html/p...
- 0xcde4c3db 7y agoA ha-ha is (typically?) a retaining wall, so I wouldn't expect the mechanical advantages to apply in the same way. I imagine it would also complicate the excavation/infill.
- geerlingguy 7y agoI believe the oldest exterior wall of the St. Louis Zoo (on the north side, along where the 1904 World's Fair bird cage was relocated) was modeled after this style. I think it's more than one brick thick, though, so it probably wasn't done that way to save on brick, just to echo the style.
- pubby 7y agoThat was my first thought too. You can see it on google maps here: https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6369944,-90.2886515,3a,75y,228.27h,89.82t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7FLKsn677ynqLqoWicfgFg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6369944,-90.2886515,3a,75y,2...
- brianberns 7y agoI don't think it's physically possible to make a wall like this that's more than one brick thick (without using an absurd amount of mortar).
- bitslayer 7y agoIn modern standards a straight wall is much easier to build because you can just measure once for each row and stretch a string to match the bricks against. A curved wall requires a level placed against every brick to make sure you are still going straight up. I expect older walls actually trusted the mason's skill without going through all that. The Wiki photo certainly looks true.
- MagnumOpus 7y ago> In modern standards Even in ancient times masons had pieces of strings and plumb-bobs to level vertically and horizontally. The more likely constraint is that before the 20th century the farmer couldn't afford masons to lay orchard walls, but did it himself...
- azepoi 7y agoThe dutch wikipedia page mentions their use to protect fruit trees from the wind and add sun reflection. You run the wall east-west and place the fruit trees in southern bends of the wall.
- irb 7y agoI grew up in Suffolk, where I knew of several examples, and I never realised that they were a particularly Suffolk-specific thing: according to the article, twice as many in the county as the rest of the UK. I would be interested to know why.
- bencollier49 7y agoTFA mentions that Dutch engineers brought over to reclaim bits of Suffolk from the sea introduced the walls.
- roel_v 7y agoI wonder if in modern times, now that labor is so much more expensive than bricks, it would still be economical. Building a brick wall costs (here in Western Europe) around e40/m2 in labor, and e25 in material for a cheap brick. So building this crinkle crankle style would only have to add about 50% in building time. I think building this is much slower than that though - I don't even know how I'd go about it, other than with a laser level, which would be really inconvenient (compared to using a string like is normally done). Then again, it would be inconvenient and frustrating, but would it be slow ?
- superhuzza 7y agoYou're likely right, it's probably not very economical nowadays. Especially given the wider range of materials than be used to build a wall or fence.
- KSteffensen 7y agoAestethics still apply though and it looks nice. Pet peeve: Why isn't anyone building brick houses anymore?
- jimnotgym 7y agoThey are in the UK. It is very common to have a decorative weatherproof facade of brick, with a cavity (often filled with insulation) between the bricks and an inside skin of insulating block, or more often now, a prefab timber frame.
- superhuzza 7y agoI actually know the answer to this, as I used to live with an architect. This information may apply more specifically to Canada than other places. 1. It's not very good at insulating relative to other materials. 2. It's more labor intensive than other materials.
- rhacker 7y agoI have always suspect brick is superior for sound insulation, perhaps not weather though?
- jhncls 7y agoWhile this type of wall mainly exists in England and the Netherlands, it is amusing how the English Wikipedia's main arguments are about saving bricks and possible military advantages, while the Dutch Wikipedia tell these walls are meant to protect fruit from weather conditions. The fruit would typically be planted at the south side. One of the ideas is that the bricks both protect against wind and keep giving some warmth after the sun has disappeared.
- PhasmaFelis 7y agoYou should update the English Wikipedia with that!
- Cytobit 7y agoDoes the shape of the wall affect either of these uses? Otherwise, wouldn't it be off-topic to start listing general facts about walls for agriculture?
- riffraff 7y agofor the saving bricks, yes, since it's more robust than a straight line single-brick wall, and cheaper than a multi-brick one. I imagine for heating, it's that the trees get exposed to more irradiation by sitting in the focus of the curve rather than in front of a line.
- jessriedel 7y agoBased on this comment, I think the idea is that if you plant trees within the bend of a wall, they are shielded and heated from more than 180 degrees. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21564553 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21564553 You only get this benefit for tree right along the wall, which is not much agricultural area. Seems like a strained justification.
- kevin_thibedeau 7y agoFruit trees were commonly grown against purpose built walls. For flat walls trees would be trained to keep their branches in a plane.
- DragonCot 7y agoFor those who wish to see it on Google Maps... https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.3095596,1.5174271,3a,75y,226.38h,90.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKqk3UNSD7KR94_zEzyV-VA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.3095596,1.5174271,3a,75y,2...
- wmorein 7y agoThere is one of these in Cambridge MA (or was until recently when someone crashed their SUV through it): https://boston.cbslocal.com/2019/05/15/cambridge-mass-car-crash-brick-wall-brattle-street-fresh-pond-parkway/ https://boston.cbslocal.com/2019/05/15/cambridge-mass-car-cr...
- SamBam 7y agoI had seen the results of that accident, but was amazed by the video at all the people saying that the area is a magnet for such accidents, and that the brick wall itself had been hit many times. I mostly walk and bike in the city, but that whole neighborhood has wide, straight, clearly-marked roads. It's like you're out in the suburbs. If people have trouble there, how do they deal with some actually-confusing intersections, like Newton Corner, Inman square, or Columbia Road in Dorchester?
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- appleflaxen 7y agoSo is it the case that it brings the cost of the wall down from 2N (two brick depth for strength) to sqrt(2)N (for a hypothetical 45 degree angle) ?
- gweinberg 7y agoI don't think so. I don't think you need anywhere near a 45 degree angle, and making the wall double thick won't really solve the fall over problem in the first place.
- brianpgordon 7y agoFunny-named type of wall? This reminds me of the ha-ha wall: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ha-ha https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ha-ha
- pottertheotter 7y agoI like this. My neighbor is a billionaire and I think I'll replace my fence with one of these so I can see his property better. It's very nice!
- whamlastxmas 7y agoWouldn't he just add a fence right at his property line if it bothered him at all?
- boomlinde 7y agoCompare to the ”crinkle crankle” layer of corrugated fiberboard which has similar properties (higher rigidity per mass)
- gweinberg 7y agoWouldn't it be easier to make with straight zig-zag sections than with wavy curves?
- jfoutz 7y agoI don't think you'd get the protection from lateral forces on the straight sections. Just a little bit of curve transfers the cross force down the whole curve. The gist is, if i push on a brick in the middle of a flat part, the force has to be resisted by the width of the single brick. but if i push on any part of the curve, that's got to lift the adjacent next level up bricks as well, which in turn have to lift the next level, and on and on. It's been a long, long time since i studied static forces though.
- equalunique 7y agoMy first thought was the irregular shape of the walls affects the way automobile noises echo off of it, potentially contrubuting to slightly quieter streets.
- davidw 7y agoSplit rail fences are sort of similar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-rail_fence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-rail_fence
- diestethrowaway 7y agoEladio Dieste made some very interesting brick buildings using similar techniques in the 20th C: https://www.archdaily.com/890362/the-intricate-undulating-brickwork-at-eladio-diestes-cristo-obrero-church-in-uruguay/5aa07d9bf197ccb54d000060-the-intricate-undulating-brickwork-at-eladio-diestes-cristo-obrero-church-in-uruguay-photo https://www.archdaily.com/890362/the-intricate-undulating-br... https://morphocode.com/eladio-dieste-reverence-to-the-laws-of-matter/ https://morphocode.com/eladio-dieste-reverence-to-the-laws-o... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eladio_Dieste https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eladio_Dieste
- carapace 7y agoSee also Gaussian curvature https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaussian_curvature https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaussian_curvature
- abruzzi 7y agoReminds me a bit of Andy Goldsworthy's "Storm King Wall" (one of his few permanent art works.) Not that he was doing it to save stones, or protect fruit trees. That shape is just a common part of his art: https://stormking.org/artist/andy-goldsworthy/ https://stormking.org/artist/andy-goldsworthy/
- RickJWagner 7y agoThat's cool, especially the economy of bricks. But I don't think it'd work well where I'm from. We have straight property lines, so you'd either have to convince your neighbor to go along with it or put it all on your side (leaving areas of grass over the fence where you couldn't mow it.)