5 ms·

Yup, it seems US citizens pay crazy amount of hidden tax because of inefficiencies caused by fanatical anti government propaganda. This isn't only about freedom

by mola 7y ago

Yup, it seems US citizens pay crazy amount of hidden tax because of inefficiencies caused by fanatical anti government propaganda. This isn't only about freedom it's about keeping power in certain hands. Too bad it's being exported everywhere

hoseja 7y ago
I suspect there's also a healthy dose of not less fanatical social Darwinism thrown in there.
pluma 7y ago
Just like how most public healthcare proposals in the US while technically raising taxes would end up leaving the individual with a much lower financial burden because of the ridiculous amounts of money Americans pay for healthcare and medication.
- merpnderp 7y ago
  This belief that the US is capable of implementing a socialized system in an affordable manner seems kind of fanaticism given the incredible amount of evidence to the contrary.
  - vkou 7y ago
    Whereas the belief that the US is capable of implementing a non-socialized system in an affordable manner is so hilariously contrary to the evidence, that it makes faith in Santa Claus seem well-grounded.
    - turk73 7y ago
      I feel the same way about the socialized version, honestly. I work in big healthcare. There's no way the government is going to pull this off. No way. We might better let it collapse than to suffer a doubling of our Federal income tax, because that is what is on the table there. And that money won't go into providing better healthcare, it will instead go to bailing out the $200 Trillion in unfunded liabilities. It won't work out the way you think, they are already several steps ahead of the people on the way they intend to spend the added largesse and it's not on us.
  - salawat 7y ago
    Keep in mind the United States only fails so spectacularly at socialized system implementation because the power of the socialized service to negotiate is defanged to prop up the excesses of the private sector. Let the government flex its muscles without artificial constraint, and watch how fast the market has to rein itself in to remain competitive. The reason Medicare is loathed, is because Medicare has a mandate to not excessively spend, and it's pricing is actually determined by people with the public interest in mind first and foremost, as well as having its pricing accessible as a matter of public record instead of being hidden away in a locked filing cabinet somewhere. The combination of those two factors are a powerful tool for shaping an industry away from "make as much money as possible while providing a service" to "provide as much service as possible while the money holds out". It is a subtle, yet important difference.
    - tptacek 7y ago
      Medicare is loathed? That's news to me.
      - wyclif 7y ago
        Even Vox has said so. Anecdotal, but lot of people in the USA across the political spectrum seem to agree if you search around in the news: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/7/29/8910387/medicare-for-all-insurance-private-abolish-bruenig https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/7/29/8910387/me...
      - salawat 7y ago
        Sorry, I should have further qualified. It is loathed by the Medical Industrial Complex because they actually have the oomph to buy things at basically cost + a modest markup. Unlike with insurers where price gouging becomes viable.
VvR-Ox 7y ago
+1 for this. When working in Germany I talked to citizens who told me their state is also heading that direction. More things are denationalized so private companies now have the responsibility but also the revenue (like "Autobahn" or some time ago the post). When I understand it correctly those where initially financed by public money so it seems like this investment is now being absorbed by the companies overtaking the business. Accordingly there are strong voices who demand less control of the economy by the government. I think they had a good system running (look at the numbers) and now they destroy that by adopting the ideas of the US-system.
- Arubis 7y ago
  The flippant-yet-accurate description I've heard of this is "socialized losses, privatized profits".
  - hedora 7y ago
    I’ve heard, “public risk, private profits”. That ends up including things like utilities, but also most of the US automotive industry, banks, etc. (It also requires the listener to have an understanding of expected value, and other basic statistics.) “socialized losses, private profits” seems to include any government spending that benefits society, such as public ownership and funding of roads, but private shipping companies (and all the industries that rely on them) profiting from their existence.
humanrebar 7y ago
> ...fanatical anti government propaganda. Jim Crow, Watergate, Catholic priest abuse scandals, regulatory failure in 2008, too big to fail, gerrymandering, police involved shootings, Hurricane Katrina flooding, Keystone Pipeline leaks, ... And, yes, it happens in local markets too: taxi medallion systems, overzealous zoning, local corruption, running Amazon out of Queens, and so on. We could call skepticism fanatical, but that dismisses some pretty substantive history and current events regarding government corruption and incompetence.
- justinclift 7y ago
  Maybe it's time for an update to Hanlon's razor? ;) Never attribute to incompetence that which can be adequately explained by corruption.
  - hedora 7y ago
    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. -Upton Sinclair
    - justinclift 7y ago
      Yeah, similar. ;)
merpnderp 7y ago
Obama was the direct opposite of fantastically anti government and this deplatforming peaked under him. This isn’t about anti government sentiment, it’s about pro abuse of government sentiment to use the force of law to push your morality on others. At least unless you weirdly classify Obama as anti government. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point
- hedora 7y ago
  Read up on corporatism. It describes the overlap of moderate Democratic and moderate Republican ideology pretty well. It is a shortening of “corporate fascism”, and is the idea that the government exists to protect the economy, which is best done by strengthening existing power structures that power the current economic system. Therefore the government should defer to corporations whenever possible.
  - takeda 7y ago
    It's also showing up in presidential campaign. Biden is known corporate Democrat. He is still leading in the polls, but losing it. The recent Ukraine revelations also didn't help and looks like Warren is taking over. Out of nowhere 3 new "moderate" candidates appeared, and also Harris got a large donation.

by mola 7y ago

hoseja 7y ago

I suspect there's also a healthy dose of not less fanatical social Darwinism thrown in there.

pluma 7y ago

Just like how most public healthcare proposals in the US while technically raising taxes would end up leaving the individual with a much lower financial burden because of the ridiculous amounts of money Americans pay for healthcare and medication.

merpnderp 7y ago
This belief that the US is capable of implementing a socialized system in an affordable manner seems kind of fanaticism given the incredible amount of evidence to the contrary.
- vkou 7y ago
  Whereas the belief that the US is capable of implementing a non-socialized system in an affordable manner is so hilariously contrary to the evidence, that it makes faith in Santa Claus seem well-grounded.
  - turk73 7y ago
    I feel the same way about the socialized version, honestly. I work in big healthcare. There's no way the government is going to pull this off. No way. We might better let it collapse than to suffer a doubling of our Federal income tax, because that is what is on the table there. And that money won't go into providing better healthcare, it will instead go to bailing out the $200 Trillion in unfunded liabilities. It won't work out the way you think, they are already several steps ahead of the people on the way they intend to spend the added largesse and it's not on us.
- salawat 7y ago
  Keep in mind the United States only fails so spectacularly at socialized system implementation because the power of the socialized service to negotiate is defanged to prop up the excesses of the private sector. Let the government flex its muscles without artificial constraint, and watch how fast the market has to rein itself in to remain competitive. The reason Medicare is loathed, is because Medicare has a mandate to not excessively spend, and it's pricing is actually determined by people with the public interest in mind first and foremost, as well as having its pricing accessible as a matter of public record instead of being hidden away in a locked filing cabinet somewhere. The combination of those two factors are a powerful tool for shaping an industry away from "make as much money as possible while providing a service" to "provide as much service as possible while the money holds out". It is a subtle, yet important difference.
  - tptacek 7y ago
    Medicare is loathed? That's news to me.
    - wyclif 7y ago
      Even Vox has said so. Anecdotal, but lot of people in the USA across the political spectrum seem to agree if you search around in the news: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/7/29/8910387/medicare-for-all-insurance-private-abolish-bruenig https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/7/29/8910387/me...
    - salawat 7y ago
      Sorry, I should have further qualified. It is loathed by the Medical Industrial Complex because they actually have the oomph to buy things at basically cost + a modest markup. Unlike with insurers where price gouging becomes viable.

VvR-Ox 7y ago

+1 for this. When working in Germany I talked to citizens who told me their state is also heading that direction. More things are denationalized so private companies now have the responsibility but also the revenue (like "Autobahn" or some time ago the post). When I understand it correctly those where initially financed by public money so it seems like this investment is now being absorbed by the companies overtaking the business. Accordingly there are strong voices who demand less control of the economy by the government. I think they had a good system running (look at the numbers) and now they destroy that by adopting the ideas of the US-system.

Arubis 7y ago
The flippant-yet-accurate description I've heard of this is "socialized losses, privatized profits".
- hedora 7y ago
  I’ve heard, “public risk, private profits”. That ends up including things like utilities, but also most of the US automotive industry, banks, etc. (It also requires the listener to have an understanding of expected value, and other basic statistics.) “socialized losses, private profits” seems to include any government spending that benefits society, such as public ownership and funding of roads, but private shipping companies (and all the industries that rely on them) profiting from their existence.

humanrebar 7y ago

> ...fanatical anti government propaganda. Jim Crow, Watergate, Catholic priest abuse scandals, regulatory failure in 2008, too big to fail, gerrymandering, police involved shootings, Hurricane Katrina flooding, Keystone Pipeline leaks, ... And, yes, it happens in local markets too: taxi medallion systems, overzealous zoning, local corruption, running Amazon out of Queens, and so on. We could call skepticism fanatical, but that dismisses some pretty substantive history and current events regarding government corruption and incompetence.

justinclift 7y ago
Maybe it's time for an update to Hanlon's razor? ;) Never attribute to incompetence that which can be adequately explained by corruption.
- hedora 7y ago
  It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. -Upton Sinclair
  - justinclift 7y ago
    Yeah, similar. ;)

merpnderp 7y ago

Obama was the direct opposite of fantastically anti government and this deplatforming peaked under him. This isn’t about anti government sentiment, it’s about pro abuse of government sentiment to use the force of law to push your morality on others. At least unless you weirdly classify Obama as anti government. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point

hedora 7y ago
Read up on corporatism. It describes the overlap of moderate Democratic and moderate Republican ideology pretty well. It is a shortening of “corporate fascism”, and is the idea that the government exists to protect the economy, which is best done by strengthening existing power structures that power the current economic system. Therefore the government should defer to corporations whenever possible.
- takeda 7y ago
  It's also showing up in presidential campaign. Biden is known corporate Democrat. He is still leading in the polls, but losing it. The recent Ukraine revelations also didn't help and looks like Warren is taking over. Out of nowhere 3 new "moderate" candidates appeared, and also Harris got a large donation.